The Word of the Lord

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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John2
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The Word of the Lord

Post by John2 »

After reading what I could see of Pahl's Discerning the "Word of the Lord": The Word of the Lord" in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 on Google books, I'm starting to consider the possibility that perhaps Paul could be referring to sayings of the earthly Jesus (via Jewish Christians) in other instances besides in 1 Thess. 4:15-17, and the ones that stand out are the following.

1 Cor. 7:10-11:
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Cf. Mk. 10:2-12:
Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”

“What did Moses command you?” he replied.

They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”

“It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”
1 Cor. 9:14:
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.


Cf. Mt. 10:9-10:
Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep.


1 Thess. 5:1-2:
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
Cf. Mt. 24:42-44:
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
I'm even reconsidering 1 Cor. 11:23-25:
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
Cf. Mk. 14:22-25:
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”

Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it.

“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. “Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
My "old" way of looking at these things was that Paul "received" this kind of information via the revelations he mentions in Gal. 1:11-12:
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
But does the "gospel I preached" refer to the gospel about Jesus that all the apostles preached or to the Torah-free gospel that only Paul preached? I think it's the latter, since when he says something elsewhere that is in agreement with Jewish Christians he says so.

1 Cor. 15:11:
Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
So in my view Paul received his Torah-free gospel that he preached to the Gentiles from the heavenly Jesus and knew what Jewish Christians like Cephas and James preached, since he says he became acquainted with them in Gal. 1:18-19:
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother


So it could have been through this second method (i.e., being acquainted with Cephas and James) that Paul knew about some of Jesus' sayings. It's starting to seem more plausible to me than the idea that the gospels created some of Jesus' sayings based on Paul (with Lk. 22:19-20 being an exception). And it all seems to boil down to Paul's language in 1 Thess. 4:15-17:
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Cf. Mk. 8:31-9:1:
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him ...

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
It sounds to me more like Paul is paraphrasing Jesus than Mark is creating the above saying based on what Paul said. And Mark doesn't necessarily need Paul, since in my view he was a follower of Peter. The similarities between Paul and the gospels could be explained by Mark and Paul being independent "witnesses" of Jesus' sayings (or what was being preached as Jesus' sayings) via Peter (and other Jewish Christians).
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The Word of the Lord

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:36 pmSo it could have been through this second method (i.e., being acquainted with Cephas and James) that Paul knew about some of Jesus' sayings. It's starting to seem more plausible to me than the idea that the gospels created some of Jesus' sayings based on Paul (with Lk. 22:19-20 being an exception). And it all seems to boil down to Paul's language in 1 Thess. 4:15-17:
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Cf. Mk. 8:31-9:1:
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him ...

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
It sounds to me more like Paul is paraphrasing Jesus than Mark is creating the above saying based on what Paul said. And Mark doesn't necessarily need Paul, since in my view he was a follower of Peter. The similarities between Paul and the gospels could be explained by Mark and Paul being independent "witnesses" of Jesus' sayings (or what was being preached as Jesus' sayings) via Peter (and other Jewish Christians).
The parallels with the Olivet Discourse are even denser and more numerous, especially the Matthean version: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1469&p=33535#p33535.
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John2
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Word of the Lord

Post by John2 »

Thanks, Ben. I see that Paul uses the same expression "word of the Lord" in 1 Thess. 1:8, and I'm looking at that in the "new" light now too.

1 Thess. 1:2-10:
We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Here is another case where I think "the Lord" means Jesus, so I'm taking "the Lord's message" to be something Jesus said, since the passage pertains to suffering and waiting for Jesus (aka "the Son of Man") to come down from heaven (after being raised from the dead) and save believers at the End Time, which is precisely Jesus' "message" (or word) in the gospels.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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