"But not during the festival"...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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"But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

The revolt when Barabbas was captured is just that revolt that had to happen "during the festival":

"But not during the festival," they said, "or the people may riot."

(Mark 14:2)

A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising.

(Mark 15:7)

Now, since Barabbas is the Son of Father of the Gnostics, it seems that "Mark" is saying that the revolt of the people, in any previous gospel where Jesus the Son of the Father is captured and crucified as king of Israel by the Jews, was really a revolt of a mere robber and not of the real Jesus called king of the Jews.


A trace of that previous gospel may be:
Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself

(John 6:15)

So in a Gospel preceding Mark the people made Jesus their king "by force" (since they believed that he was the Jewish Messiah), and the revolt was repressed by Pilate "during the festival" and Jesus the Son of Father was crucified as (presumed) king of Israel.

The scribes and pharisees appear to know already in advance that version of the facts in Mark 14:2. So by their prevision "Mark" is exorcizing any rumor about a different fate of the same Son of God. A fate where behind the people there was at work Satan himself, and not only behind Peter (since all the people called him "Christ", and not only Peter).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

There is the concrete possibility that the Jesus passage in Slavonic Josephus could reflect the knowledge of the Gospel I am talking about that could precede Mark.
1. At that time also a man came forward,—if even it is fitting to call him a man [simply]. 2. His nature as well as his form were a man's; but his showing forth was more than [that] of a man. 3. His works, that is to say, were godly, and he wrought wonder-deeds amazing and full of power. 4. Therefore it is not possible for me to call him a man [simply]. 5. But again, looking at the existence he shared with all, I would also not call him an angel.

6. And all that he wrought through some kind of invisible power, he wrought by word and command.

7. Some said of him, that our first Lawgiver has risen from the dead and shows forth many cures and arts. 8. But others supposed [less definitely] that he is sent by God.

9. Now he opposed himself in much to the Law and did not observe the Sabbath according to ancestral custom. 10. Yet, on the other hand, he did nothing reprehensible nor any crime; but by word solely he effected everything.

11. And many from the folk followed him and received his teachings. 12. And many souls became wavering, supposing that thereby the Jewish tribes would set themselves free from the Roman hands.

13. Now it was his custom often to stop on the Mount of Olives facing the city. 14. And there also he avouched his cures p. 107 to the people. 15. And there gathered themselves to him of servants (Knechten) a hundred and fifty, but of the folk a multitude.

16. But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us. 17. But that one scorned it.


18. And thereafter, when knowledge of it came to the Jewish leaders, they gathered together with the High-priest and spake: "We are powerless and weak to withstand the Romans. 19. But as withal the bow is bent, we will go and tell Pilate what we have heard, and we will be without distress, lest if he hear it from others, we be robbed of our substance and ourselves be put to the sword and our children ruined." 20. And they went and told it to Pilate.

21. And he sent and had many of the people cut down. 22. And he had that wonder-doer brought up. And when he had instituted a trial concerning him, he perceived that he is a doer of good, but not an evildoer, nor a revolutionary, nor one who aimed at power, and set him free. 23. He had, you should know, healed his dying wife.

24. And he went to his accustomed place and wrought his accustomed works. 25. And as again more folk gathered themselves together round him, then did he win glory through his works more than all.

26. The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. 27. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose.

28. And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm

The Jesus who is considered by the Jews as their presumed Messiah and therefore crucified seems to be the same gnostic Jesus Son of Father of which "Barabbas" is probably a mere parody.

Note the absence of Judas in the role of the betrayer: this because Judas served only to point out, against Marcion, that Jesus is "of the tribe of Judah", i.e. really the Jewish Messiah. So who takes the 30 denarii is Pilate and not Judah. Pilate is so the betrayer in the Earliest Gospel: he captures Jesus and gives him to the Jews. So the gentile Christians who judaize (betraying Paul) are really repeating the same betrayal of this Earliest Gospel Pilate: they are crucifying again Jesus. So this allegorizes what Paul said: the circumcision implies that the crucifixion is vain. So the death of Jesus is vain in the Earliest Gospel: afterall, who dies is only the man Jesus. Not the divine Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

So the separationism in Mark finds his justification in the following words of Paul:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing

(Gal 2:20-21)

The Markan Jesus is a mere man. On the cross he is abandoned by Christ to make vain the effects of the his crucifixion for the Jews who are killing him, since who is crucified is a mere man and not the divine Christ.

At contrary of the Markan Jesus, who was not crucified with Christ (possessing him), the gentile Christian Paul was crucified with Christ (possessing him), and so all the paulines. So the Risen Jesus is again possessed by the divine Christ insofar he is preceding the apostles in Galilea, i.e. insofar he is the perfect model for the gentile Christians like Paul. But for Peter and the 12 the crucifixion of a mere man is been more vain than the same resurrection of that man.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

Corollary of the previous posts:

If the crucifixion of a mere man served only to make vain the effects of that crucifixion for the his killers (=allegory for the Judaizers), then only the crucifixion of the same divine Christ could really have some decisive effect on the "true" Pauline Christians for proto-Mark: so the crucifixion of the divine Christ was described in a previous Gospel. It is the crucifixion happened in the lower heavens, not on the earth.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

So it is explained why on the cross the same Law is crucified:

1)The man Jesus fulfilled the entire Law (according to Cerinthus, the original reader of proto-Mark)

2) therefore the man Jesus is the same Torah

3) therefore the Jesus/Torah is crucified by the divine Christ

4) only by confessing that the Torah is vain (=the cry on the cross) to save him, the man Jesus is redeemed.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

Traces of that Markan separationism are found also here:
He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross

(Colossians 2:14)

So it appears more and more evident that the man Jesus is symbol of the Law since he is the Most Perfect Observant of the Torah. If even he is crucified, then the Torah has really no value at all for the salvation. So the crucifixion of the man Jesus coincides with the crucifixion of the same Torah. The man Jesus is allegory of the Torah in Mark.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Joseph D. L. »

The Acta Pauli et Antonini may shed light on this.

In Alexandria, there was an annual festival in which the Jews would be mocked by the Gentiles and Hellenists. An effigy of the messiah would be paraded around the city on a stave and have insults hurled at it. This custom extended as far back to the time of Herod Agrippa II.

When the festival was underway in 113 ad, Hadrian ordered it to cease. This sparked a riot in which one Anthimos was blamed for instigating. Hadrian then investigated two ambassadors, Paulus and Antoninus, for treason. He allowed Paulus to go free, but ordered Antinous to be crucified and his body immolated.

How this relates historgraphically to the Barabbas episode is that the author(s), writing perhaps five decades later, would hear about this event orally, and transfigured it into the Jesus narrative.

I still have no idea what you're getting at with your theory that Judas is an anti-Marcionite/anti-Gnostic proxy. Both Judas and Pilate are considered to be crucial supporters of the Christ in Gnostic philosophies. This only serves to go along with your complete ignorance as to what Gnosticism was, as well as the origins of these traditions. I honestly have no idea why you even bother with this if you're only interested in your own nonsensical notions about "judiazers". Gentiles who Judiazed??? What???
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Giuseppe
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:18 am How this relates historgraphically to the Barabbas episode is that the author(s), writing perhaps five decades later, would hear about this event orally, and transfigured it into the Jesus narrative.
No. I disagree totally. Couchoud has proved beyond any reasonable doubt that Barabbas is a later insertion to mock the Son of Father of the gnostic tradition, to reiterate again and again, in a very obsessive way (just as the same titulum crucis and the same Judas) that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the Son of YHWH and not of an unknown Father. So I talk always about Mark assuming that Judas and Barabbas were not there in the original narrative.
I still have no idea what you're getting at with your theory that Judas is an anti-Marcionite/anti-Gnostic proxy. Both Judas and Pilate are considered to be crucial supporters of the Christ in Gnostic philosophies. This only serves to go along with your complete ignorance as to what Gnosticism was, as well as the origins of these traditions. I honestly have no idea why you even bother with this if you're only interested in your own nonsensical notions about "judiazers". Gentiles who Judiazed??? What???
Judas was inserted by Judaizers to point out the fact that only a Jew from Judea could be able to recognize Jesus in the middle of the night and to give him to the gentiles: in other terms, Judah's presence in the Gospel serves as theological evidence that Jesus is really the Jewish Messiah (against who denied that Jesus was Son of YHWH: the Gnostics). In the Earliest Gospel who betrayed Jesus for 30 denarii was Pilate, not Judas (evidence of this in the Slavonic Josephus).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:45 am No. I disagree totally. Couchoud has proved beyond any reasonable doubt that Barabbas is a later insertion to mock the Son of Father of the gnostic tradition, to reiterate again and again, in a very obsessive way (just as the same titulum crucis and the same Judas) that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the Son of YHWH and not of an unknown Father. So I talk always about Mark assuming that Judas and Barabbas were not there in the original narrative.
You have this persistent habit of holding up the words of anyone who agrees with your agenda. I don't care what Couchoud, Ory, or Detering say. Their words don't mean anything.

Barabbas serves the same function as Simon of Cyrene and Judas do. One dies, while another is freed. That theme is replete in the ending scenes of the Gospels.
Judas was inserted by Judaizers to point out the fact that only a Jew from Judea could be able to recognize Jesus in the middle of the night and to give him to the gentiles: in other terms, Judah's presence in the Gospel serves as theological evidence that Jesus is really the Jewish Messiah (against who denied that Jesus was Son of YHWH: the Gnostics). In the Earliest Gospel who betrayed Jesus for 30 denarii was Pilate, not Judas (evidence of this in the Slavonic Josephus).
Absolute rubbish. Judas identifies Jesus because of his pact with him. After all, Judas is a Gnostic hero to the Sethians. And in Mark 14:18-21, Jesus knows he will be betrayed. It doesn't matter who betrays him, because it is in accordance to the plan of salvation.

And Pilate is not a betrayer, but the first Apostle who recognized the innocence of Jesus after the disciples had abandoned him.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and at this point are just stringing together superfluous words.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "But not during the festival"...

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:39 am You have this persistent habit of holding up the words of anyone who agrees with your agenda. I don't care what Couchoud, Ory, or Detering say. Their words don't mean anything.
This is the typical effect of the your complete ignorance of these authors. I can't continue a discussion with you sic stantibus rebus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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