Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by iskander »

The Judean world after dearth, sins of the flesh and sins of the mind

Mas. Rosh HaShana 17a
Wrongdoers of Israel who sin with their body7 and wrongdoers of the Gentiles who sin with their body go down to Gehinnom and are punished there for twelve months. After twelve months their body is consumed and their soul is burnt and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous as it says, And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet.8


But as for the minim9 and the informers and the scoffers,10 who rejected the Torah and denied the resurrection of the dead, and those who abandoned the ways of the community,11 and those who ‘spread their terror in the land of the living’,12 and who sinned and made the masses sin, like Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his fellows — these will go down to Gehinnom and be punished there for all generations, as it says, And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against me13 etc
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by iskander »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:44 am
DCHindley wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:57 am
The "lower parts" of the earth would probably refer then to the grave or caves where bodies were interred.
The "lower parts of earth" are probably what Putarch calls "extreme parts of earth" where he places the death of Osiris by Thypo. Julian places there the death of Attis, too. This point raises the question of where precisely are these "lower parts of earth": in the lower heavens? If on the earth, where precisely? Surely not at Golgotha.
Gehinnom is found in the nethermost pit, (lower part)
Mishna - Mas. Avoth Chapter 5
MISHNAH 19....
BUT THE DISCIPLES OF BALAAM, THE WICKED, INHERIT GEHINNOM,123 AND DESCEND INTO THE NETHERMOST PIT, AS IT IS SAID: BUT THOU, O GOD, WILT BRING THEM DOWN TO THE NETHERMOST PIT; MEN OF BLOOD AND DECEIT124 SHALL NOT LIVE OUT HALF THEIR DAYS; BUT AS FOR ME, I WILL TRUST INTHEE.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by iskander »

The RCC dogma of the existence of everlasting bliss, everlasting suffering, and purgatory is a borrowed idea from its mother,

Mas. Rosh HaShana 16b
It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate.


The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life;

the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.29

The intermediate will go down to Gehinnom
User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by arnoldo »

iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by iskander »

arnoldo wrote: Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:15 pm https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-18.htm
Yes, Revelation is " perhaps the most natively Jewish of the Christian scriptures,"


Re: The Beast Revelation
Post by iskander » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:12 pm
Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE
Post by iskander » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:39 pm


Rabbi Garroway considers that " Revelation is perhaps the most natively Jewish of the Christian scriptures, composed by a meticulously observant Jew who would scoff at Christianity today." and also that John " He taught them to remain faithful in advance of their impending redemption—faithful to God, to God’s Torah, and to God’s messiah Jesus."

John 's Revelation is part of the Christian canon , a religion based on the teachings of Paul who is Balaam in the mind of John.

Apparently , all what Jewish Christians needed to get their books in the Christian canon was to believe that Jesus was the Messiah , died, was resuscitated and will return in the near future. .Redemption for those Jewish believers would take place when Jesus returns..
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3114&p=72445&hilit=patmos#p72445
http://thetorah.com/balaam-the-seducer- ... n-polemic/
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1888&start=10
robert j
Posts: 1007
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by robert j »

Paul claimed that Satan disguises himself as an “angel of light” (ἄγγελον φωτός) in 2 Corinthians 11:14. And it doesn’t take much creative reading in one of Paul’s favorite books of the prophets to associate a fallen angel of light with the underworld ---

O how fell from out of the heaven the morning star (εωσφόρος) -- the one by morning rising --- the one sending to all the nations was broken unto the earth. But you said in your heart, ‘Unto the heaven I shall ascend; upon the stars of the heaven I will put my throne; I shall sit on a high mountain, upon the high mountains towards the north; I will ascend upon the clouds; I will be likened to the highest’. But now into Hades (άδην) you shall go down, and into the foundations of the earth. The ones beholding you shall wonder over you, and shall say, ‘This is the man provoking the earth, the one shaking kings; the one making the inhabitable world desolate, and its cities demolished; he did not set loose the ones in enslavement’. (Isaiah 14:12-17, LXX)

This last line cited here from Isaiah reminds me of the descent of Jesus into the underworld as found in 1 Peter --- a letter with a Pauline flavor and likely an expansion here on Ephesians 4:8-10 (see OP and my 2nd post on page 1).

The outcast Satan failed to set free the captives in Hades in Isaiah 14:17: however, in 1 Peter Christ did accomplish the release of the captive spirits sitting in darkness, apparently using other passages from Isaiah (from the OP) ---

1 Peter Isaiah (LXX)

Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that He might bring you to God, having been put to death indeed in the flesh, but having been made alive in the spirit, in which also having gone, He preached to the spirits in prison (φυλακῇ). (1 Peter 3:18-19)


For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God. (1 Peter 4:6)

I gave you for a covenant of a race, for a light of nations; to open the eyes of the blind, to lead out of bonds ones being tied; from out of the house of prison (φυλακής) and ones sitting in darkness. (Isaiah 42:6-7)


Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the ones being broken in the heart; to proclaim a release to captives and recovery of sight to the blind. (Isaiah 61:1)


User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

robert j wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:59 am Paul claimed that Satan disguises himself as an “angel of light” (ἄγγελον φωτός) in 2 Corinthians 11:14. And it doesn’t take much creative reading in one of Paul’s favorite books of the prophets to associate a fallen angel of light with the underworld ---

O how fell from out of the heaven the morning star (εωσφόρος) -- the one by morning rising --- the one sending to all the nations was broken unto the earth. But you said in your heart, ‘Unto the heaven I shall ascend; upon the stars of the heaven I will put my throne; I shall sit on a high mountain, upon the high mountains towards the north; I will ascend upon the clouds; I will be likened to the highest’. But now into Hades (άδην) you shall go down, and into the foundations of the earth. The ones beholding you shall wonder over you, and shall say, ‘This is the man provoking the earth, the one shaking kings; the one making the inhabitable world desolate, and its cities demolished; he did not set loose the ones in enslavement’. (Isaiah 14:12-17, LXX)

This last line cited here from Isaiah reminds me of the descent of Jesus into the underworld as found in 1 Peter --- a letter with a Pauline flavor and likely an expansion here on Ephesians 4:8-10 (see OP and my 2nd post on page 1).

The outcast Satan failed to set free the captives in Hades in Isaiah 14:17: however, in 1 Peter Christ did accomplish the release of the captive spirits sitting in darkness, apparently using other passages from Isaiah (from the OP) ---

1 Peter Isaiah (LXX)

Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that He might bring you to God, having been put to death indeed in the flesh, but having been made alive in the spirit, in which also having gone, He preached to the spirits in prison (φυλακῇ). (1 Peter 3:18-19)


For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God. (1 Peter 4:6)

I gave you for a covenant of a race, for a light of nations; to open the eyes of the blind, to lead out of bonds ones being tied; from out of the house of prison (φυλακής) and ones sitting in darkness. (Isaiah 42:6-7)


Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the ones being broken in the heart; to proclaim a release to captives and recovery of sight to the blind. (Isaiah 61:1)


Okay, but surely the principal or immediate inspiration for the "spirits in prison" motif in 1 Peter is 1 Enoch.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by iskander »

Isaiah 14. Jewish Study Bible.

Isaiah 14.1-23: A mock lament concerning Israel's oppressor. The poem in vv 4b-21 the ignominious death of an Assyrian monarch of Isaiah's time, probably Sargon II , who was killed in battle in 705. It was later interpreted as predicting the death of a Babylonian monarch....

12_15 : The king's vain aspirations to be god-like status are mocked. Isaiaih refers ironically to the king as Shinning One, son of Dawn, applying to him the name of a character from ancient Canaanite myth ...The name closely recalls Phaethon son of Eos in Greek mythology ...

16-21: The fate of the king's body. Denied a proper burial, he is condemned to the most miserable fate in the underworld.
Attachment:
lucifer.PNG
lucifer.PNG (95.68 KiB) Viewed 12034 times
robert j
Posts: 1007
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by robert j »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:35 pm
robert j wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:59 am Paul claimed that Satan disguises himself as an “angel of light” (ἄγγελον φωτός) in 2 Corinthians 11:14. And it doesn’t take much creative reading in one of Paul’s favorite books of the prophets to associate a fallen angel of light with the underworld ---

O how fell from out of the heaven the morning star (εωσφόρος) -- the one by morning rising --- the one sending to all the nations was broken unto the earth. But you said in your heart, ‘Unto the heaven I shall ascend; upon the stars of the heaven I will put my throne; I shall sit on a high mountain, upon the high mountains towards the north; I will ascend upon the clouds; I will be likened to the highest’. But now into Hades (άδην) you shall go down, and into the foundations of the earth. The ones beholding you shall wonder over you, and shall say, ‘This is the man provoking the earth, the one shaking kings; the one making the inhabitable world desolate, and its cities demolished; he did not set loose the ones in enslavement’. (Isaiah 14:12-17, LXX)

This last line cited here from Isaiah reminds me of the descent of Jesus into the underworld as found in 1 Peter --- a letter with a Pauline flavor and likely an expansion here on Ephesians 4:8-10 (see OP and my 2nd post on page 1).

The outcast Satan failed to set free the captives in Hades in Isaiah 14:17: however, in 1 Peter Christ did accomplish the release of the captive spirits sitting in darkness, apparently using other passages from Isaiah (from the OP) ---

1 Peter Isaiah (LXX)

Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that He might bring you to God, having been put to death indeed in the flesh, but having been made alive in the spirit, in which also having gone, He preached to the spirits in prison (φυλακῇ). (1 Peter 3:18-19)


For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God. (1 Peter 4:6)

I gave you for a covenant of a race, for a light of nations; to open the eyes of the blind, to lead out of bonds ones being tied; from out of the house of prison (φυλακής) and ones sitting in darkness. (Isaiah 42:6-7)


Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the ones being broken in the heart; to proclaim a release to captives and recovery of sight to the blind. (Isaiah 61:1)


Okay, but surely the principal or immediate inspiration for the "spirits in prison" motif in 1 Peter is 1 Enoch.
I think there is little doubt that 1 Enoch played a role here. But in the Apocrypha and the Jewish scriptures the descent into the underworld was not successful.

In Isaiah14:12-17, the fallen morning star (εωσφόρος) did not set-loose the ones enslaved in Hades.

And in 1 Enoch, the title character failed in his bid to release the fallen angels, the Watchers, from the abyss of fire --- the prison in which they were forever confined.

But in 1 Peter and Ephesians, Jesus Christ conquered death and then preached to the spirits in prison and proclaimed the gospel to the dead, so that they might live in the spirit according to God.

It’s not entirely clear ---

--- if the author of 1 Peter intended the imprisoned spirits in the underworld to be just the Watchers --- there is a connection to this 1 Enoch story in 2 Peter 2:4. Or ---

--- if the intention of the author of 1 Peter was to include all the imprisoned spirits of those that had died before the redemptive descent. At this stage of Christian thought, I prefer this second solution.

The author of 1 Peter apparently used the two passages from Isaiah (in the table above and the OP) to construct the descent into the underworld by Christ. Those verses from Isaiah are seen by many as associated with Jesus Christ, and were most likely central to the development of early Christian thought.

There is another connection here as well. In Isaiah 14:12-17, the fallen morning star (εωσφόρος), perhaps acting within character, did not set-loose the ones enslaved in Hades. But in 2 Peter 1:19, Jesus Christ is presented as the true light-bringer (φωσφόρος, aka the Morning Star) --- who in 1 Peter brought the opportunity for the imprisoned spirits in the underworld to live in the spirit according to God.
Last edited by robert j on Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Why Did Jesus Descend Into Hell?

Post by iskander »

iskander wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:42 pm Isaiah 14. Jewish Study Bible.

Isaiah 14.1-23: A mock lament concerning Israel's oppressor. The poem in vv 4b-21 the ignominious death of an Assyrian monarch of Isaiah's time, probably Sargon II , who was killed in battle in 705. It was later interpreted as predicting the death of a Babylonian monarch....

12_15 : The king's vain aspirations to be god-like status are mocked. Isaiaih refers ironically to the king as Shinning One, son of Dawn, applying to him the name of a character from ancient Canaanite myth ...The name closely recalls Phaethon son of Eos in Greek mythology ...

16-21: The fate of the king's body. Denied a proper burial, he is condemned to the most miserable fate in the underworld.
Attachment:lucifer.PNG
The New American Bible,
Isaiah 14

14:4-21 This taunt song, a satirical funeral lament, is a beautiful example of classical Hebrew poetry. According to the prose introduction and the prosaic conclusion (vv 21-23), it is directed against the king of Babylon, though Babylon is mentioned nowhere in the song itself...

14:12 Morning Star Term addressed to the king of Babylon. The Vulgate translates as "Lucifer," a name applied by the church Fathers to Satan. Son of the Dawn: Heb, ben sahar, may reflect the name of a pagan deity.
...
Post Reply