Paul is the man in John 3:13

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Joseph D. L.
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Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:45 am


No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. ⧼ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ⧽.

Paul, speaking of himself in the second person, describes his revelation as so:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses— though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.

Jesus cannot be speaking of himself because the language in John 3:13 indicates that someone must first ascend into heaven so as to descend. Jesus, however, descended first, and ascended afterward. The passage is applicable to Paul, who describes his revelation as being caught up to the third heaven--ascending.

This goes along with my greater proposal of Paul being related to the Johannine literature, and Luke is a synthesis of Johannine and Matthean material.

Giuseppe
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:17 pm

I disagree strongly, as usual with a modern judaizer of Marcion (feature by you shared with Secret Alias).

''No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man'' means that Elijah and Moses are not ascended into heaven, before Jesus.

Only Paul ascended to heaven.

After Jesus.


Clearly here the Jesus in question is the marcionite/Gnostic Christ of proto-John.

I am sure that at least Stuart would agree with me, on this point. ;)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

FJVermeiren
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by FJVermeiren » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:20 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:45 am

Jesus cannot be speaking of himself because the language in John 3:13 indicates that someone must first ascend into heaven so as to descend. Jesus, however, descended first, and ascended afterward. The passage is applicable to Paul, who describes his revelation as being caught up to the third heaven--ascending.

This goes along with my greater proposal of Paul being related to the Johannine literature, and Luke is a synthesis of Johannine and Matthean material.

Joseph, maybe you are right that Paul is mentioned in John 3:13.

In my copy of the Greek-English New Testament I have marked the second part of this pericope, John 3:17-21, as ‘Pauline’.

Encryption is one of the fundamental communication strategies of the writers of the New Testament. I believe we can discern the following encrypted key notions in this fragment:
• Son of man: Paul (verse 13)
• Kosmos: the Roman empire (verse 17 and 19)
• Son of God: the (future) Christ (verse 18)
• Light: Essene messianic ideology (verse 19-21)
• Darkness: Roman imperial ideology (verse 19)

With these key words identified verse 17-21 convey the following message:
God sent Paul to the Roman empire, not to condemn it but to save it. Those who believe in Paul’s message are not condemned; condemnation is reserved for those who do not believe in the name of the (future) Christ. Essene messianic ideology has been preached in the Roman empire, but men loved Roman imperial ideology more than the Essene Christ message. There is fundamental opposition between these two rival ideologies.

See also my thread 'Whose farewell speech is this?'
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4161

robert j
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by robert j » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:15 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:45 am

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. ⧼ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ⧽.

... Jesus cannot be speaking of himself because the language in John 3:13 indicates that someone must first ascend into heaven so as to descend. Jesus, however, descended first, and ascended afterward.
Huh? I think the passage says just the opposite of what you are claiming here. The gist of the passage — no one has gone up, except the one (first) having come down, that is, the Son of Man.

As a side note, in GJohn, there is no actual ascension scene, only allusions foretelling such an event (3:13, 6:62, 7:33, 13:1 and 20:17).

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:45 am

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. ⧼ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ⧽.

Paul, speaking of himself in the second person, describes his revelation as so:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven ...

The passage [i.e. John 3:13] is applicable to Paul, who describes his revelation as being caught up to the third heaven--ascending.
I think it's possible to see the passage in GJohn as a denial of Paul's claim that he knew a man that ascended to the third heaven — nowhere is it claimed that the man Paul knew had first descended from heaven.

On the other hand, perhaps the author of GJohn was making a distinction between the characteristics and implications of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven from the experiences of Enoch and Elijah.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:02 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:17 pm
I disagree strongly, as usual with a modern judaizer of Marcion (feature by you shared with Secret Alias).
Honestly, Giuseppe, I couldn't care less what you think.

Denying that Marcion himself was deeply influenced by Judaism (or Samaritanism), is just willful ignorance at this point.

And John is the most Jewish Gospel, and concords more so with Marcion than Luke. Or do you believe that what Irenaeus, Tertullian, Adamantus and Epiphanius report about his texts?

The reason why John--orproto-John--exists is to emphasize the role of the Paraclete, that being Paul. It also undermines the role of the Brothers' Zebedee, unlike the Synoptics, and Paul made himself an enemy of James and John.

What's more, the entirety of John 3:1-15 is an allusion to the eclipse of 118 ad, which Marcion was a witness of.

Add to this bizarre testimony by Irenaeus that Valentinus conanized John with the Pauline epistles, and there you go.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:36 pm

robert j wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:15 pm
Huh? I think the passage says just the opposite of what you are claiming here. The gist of the passage — no one has gone up, except the one (first) having come down, that is, the Son of Man.
Reading the passage as is, you can't say it's referring to Jesus, because he has yet to ascend.

But understanding John as Pauline, it becomes clear that it is promoting Paul as the Paraclete; as the one who descended after ascending to the Third Heaven.

Nicodemus is himself possibly a Pauline figure. (i.e Demas)
I think it's possible to see the passage in GJohn as a denial of Paul's claim that he knew a man that ascended to the third heaven — nowhere is it claimed that the man Paul knew had first descended from heaven.
Paul is speaking of himself. Not some other man.

But Jesus' wording in John 3:13 is that "no one", essentially an unremarkable person, "has ascended Into heaven", as if they have already done so, "except he who has descended from heaven, which is a confirmation of his ascension. The ascension comes first, and then the descent.
On the other hand, perhaps the author of GJohn was making a distinction between the characteristics and implications of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven from the experiences of Enoch and Elijah.
Doubtful as John is promotional material for Paul, the Paraclete. Their only inclusion would be insofar as that they never returned to teach others of heaven.

robert j
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by robert j » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:42 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:36 pm

Reading the passage as is, you can't say it's referring to Jesus, because he has yet to ascend.

But Jesus' wording in John 3:13 is that "no one", essentially an unremarkable person, "has ascended Into heaven", as if they have already done so, "except he who has descended from heaven, which is a confirmation of his ascension. The ascension comes first, and then the descent.

... But ... it becomes clear that it is promoting Paul ... as the one who descended after ascending to the Third Heaven.
Granted, John 3:13 can be seen as presenting some confusion in terms of the timing and the order of the events of the Son of Man who is clearly identified in the verse. This is, I think, a result of the order in the source material likely used by the author ---

Who ascended into the heaven, and came down? Who brought together the winds in his bosom? Who bundled up waters in his cloak? Who holds all the extremities of the earth? (Proverbs 30:4, LXX)

However, your interpretation of the intended order of events in 3:13 runs contrary to the other passages in GJohn where Jesus has descended first (6:38, 6:51, 8:42, 13:3, 16:28 ), and predicts his ascension as an event in the future (6:62, 7:33, 13:1, 20:17).

We will just have to disagree on your suggestion that John 3:13 is about Paul and the journey into the 3rd heaven he discussed in 2 Corinthians, as well as on some of your other claims here.

I’m not inclined to get further involved in this discussion, I will leave you to your opinions, and to develop your case as you see fit.

Over and out.

Giuseppe
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:56 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:02 pm
Or do you believe that what Irenaeus, Tertullian, Adamantus and Epiphanius report about his texts?
Yeah. Forgive me, but the idea that some Christians hated the creator god has always intrigued and persuaded me as one of the most true and authentic voices of that literature.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:24 pm

My hypothesis that chapter 3:13 is alluding to Paul comes from my greater theory that John, or a proto-John, was the Gospel associated with Marcion.

For years it never made sense to me how Marcion could have a Paul preach of an almost ethereal Christ in his epistles, yet have a Gospel that nearly contradicts everything in these epistles. What's more, the main figure in the epistles is not Christ, but Paul himself. So any Gospel associated with Marcion/Paul, would be a promotion of Paul.

And John does this by foretelling the coming of the Paraclete. Come on. Who else is that going to be? It's Paul. I had already began suspecting a greater connection between John and Paul when Irenaeus says that Valentinus used Pauline epistles (Romans I think was his go to one).

But my main reason for suspecting that Paul is the man being spoken of in verse thirteen, is the verses preceding this, in which Jesus explains to Nicodemus the symbolism of being reborn:

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

This very Pauline statute contains, as many have noted, a play on the Greek for again and from above.

Being born from above is to be born again. And this explains the ambiguous and bizarre statements Paul gives to his own birth in 1 Corinthians 15 and Galatians 1. It was his rebirth that is being foreshadowed, a rebirth that could only be accomplished with his ascension. And this ascension for Paul was the eclipse of 118 ad, in which he saw the Lord crucified by Moses/Ophiuchus, the evil Serpent ruling the Lower realm, and his rebirth from his mother, Virgo. In fact, how Acts of the Apostles chapter nine recounts Paul's conversion is similar to eclipse scotoma, a condition sometimes brought about by viewing an eclipse without proper protection.

But all of this and more will be in my book, which has pretty much been put on indefinite hold for the moment.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Paul is the man in John 3:13

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:53 am

FJVermeiren wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:20 am
Joseph, maybe you are right that Paul is mentioned in John 3:13.

In my copy of the Greek-English New Testament I have marked the second part of this pericope, John 3:17-21, as ‘Pauline’.

Encryption is one of the fundamental communication strategies of the writers of the New Testament. I believe we can discern the following encrypted key notions in this fragment:
• Son of man: Paul (verse 13)
• Kosmos: the Roman empire (verse 17 and 19)
• Son of God: the (future) Christ (verse 18)
• Light: Essene messianic ideology (verse 19-21)
• Darkness: Roman imperial ideology (verse 19)

With these key words identified verse 17-21 convey the following message:
God sent Paul to the Roman empire, not to condemn it but to save it. Those who believe in Paul’s message are not condemned; condemnation is reserved for those who do not believe in the name of the (future) Christ. Essene messianic ideology has been preached in the Roman empire, but men loved Roman imperial ideology more than the Essene Christ message. There is fundamental opposition between these two rival ideologies.

See also my thread 'Whose farewell speech is this?'
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4161
At the moment I can't tell if Paul is an agent sent to the Romans, or an agent sent by the Romans. The tradition of Aquila, as well as certain teachings that seem to promote Roman policies, lead me to presume that Paul, after his revelation, became a supporter of Rome, and particularly Hadrian.

I do, to an extent, agree with your exegesis. But here, I think, Light and Dark hold different meanings. The Light is obviously a euphemism for the Logos, and Darkness the absence of this light. It harkens back to Genesis 1, and the prologue of John re-emphasizes this. The Man of Light would embody (Logos becomes flesh) this principle; however Paul would have turned away from a purely Jewish centralism for universalism.

Things really come to a head during bar Kochba. Paul saw Hadrian as the Messiah, while r. Akiva saw bar Kochba as the Messiah.

So then, is Jesus in John a metaphor for Hadrian? I have stated elsewhere my speculation that Lazarus was Antinous. That would make the possibility only marginally greater. (What seems clear to me is that Gospel of the Hebrews is derived from John, or its prototype. Lazarus discards the wrappings in John, yet in Gospel of the Hebrews Jesus bestows the cloth to the servant of a priest. The resurrection of Jesus in the Synoptics--in Gospel of the Hebrews--is based on Lazarus.)

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