The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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DCHindley
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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This board and its predecessors (Free Ratio DB and Internet Infidels DB) *used* to be keen on looking at the source texts rather than argumentation by citing authorities about content & dates, but that does not seem to be of interest in this thread.

What follows is my own "has-to-be-wrong" but seriously intended hypothetical reconstruction of an "original" Letter from the Romans to the Corinthians. I have left out ALL the numerous and all-pervading sermons, which seldom have much to do with the situation at hand - schism. I have retained the original order of the chapters. Anyhow, here it is - thrown out for discussion:
Chapter I. (1). The church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the church of God sojourning at Corinth ... Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy, that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be universally loved, has suffered grievous injury.

For who ever dwelt even for a short time among you, and did not find your faith to be as fruitful of virtue as it was firmly established? Who did not admire the sobriety and moderation of your godliness in Christ? Who did not proclaim the magnificence of your habitual hospitality? And who did not rejoice over your perfect and well-grounded knowledge?

For ye did all things without respect of persons, and walked in the commandments of God, being obedient to those who had the rule over you, and giving all fitting honour to the presbyters among you. Ye enjoined young men to be of a sober and serious mind, ye instructed your wives to do all things with a blameless, becoming, and pure conscience, loving their husbands as in duty bound; and ye taught them that, living in the rule of obedience, they should manage their household affairs becomingly, and be in every respect marked by discretion.

Chapter II (2). Moreover, ye were all distinguished by humility, and were in no respect puffed up with pride, but yielded obedience rather than extorted it, and were more willing to give than to receive. Content with the provision which God had made for you, and carefully attending to His words, ye were inwardly filled with His doctrine, and His sufferings were before your eyes.

Thus a profound and abundant peace was given to you all, and ye had an insatiable desire for doing good, while a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was upon you all.

Full of holy designs, ye did, with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, stretch forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful unto you, if ye had been guilty of any involuntary transgression.

Day and night ye were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.

Ye were sincere and uncorrupted, and forgetful of injuries between one another.

Every kind of faction and schism was abominable in your sight. Ye mourned over the transgressions of your neighbours: their deficiencies you deemed your own.

Ye never grudged any act of kindness, being “ready to every good work.”

Adorned by a thoroughly virtuous and religious life, ye did all things in the fear of God. The commandments and ordinances of the Lord were written upon the tablets of your hearts.

Chapter III (3). Every kind of honour and happiness was bestowed upon you, and then was fulfilled that which is written, “My beloved did eat and drink, and was enlarged and became fat, and kicked.”

Hence flowed emulation and envy, strife and sedition, persecution and disorder, war and captivity. So the worthless rose up against the honoured, those of no reputation against such as were renowned, the foolish against the wise, the young against those advanced in years.

For this reason righteousness and peace are now far departed from you, inasmuch as every one abandons the fear of God, and is become blind in His faith, neither walks in the ordinances of His appointment, nor acts a part becoming a Christian, but walks after his own wicked lusts, resuming the practice of an unrighteous and ungodly envy, by which death itself entered into the world.

Chapter VII (7). These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. For we are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us.

Chapter XIV (14). It is right and holy therefore, men and brethren, rather to obey God than to follow those who, through pride and sedition, have become the leaders of a detestable emulation.

For we shall incur no slight injury, but rather great danger, if we rashly yield ourselves to the inclinations of men who aim at exciting strife and tumults, so as to draw us away from what is good.

Chapter XV (15). Let us cleave, therefore, to those who cultivate peace with godliness, and not to those who hypocritically profess to desire it.

Chapter XLIV (44). Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate.

For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry.

Chapter XLV (45). Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation.

For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.

Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them.

But we see that ye have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.

Chapter XLVI (46). Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you?

Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ?

Why do we divide and tear in pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that “we are members one of another?”

Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth.

Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth.

Chapter XLVII (47). Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul.

What did he write to you at the time when the gospel first began to be preached?

Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you.

But that inclination for one above another entailed less guilt upon you, inasmuch as your partialities were then shown towards apostles, already of high reputation, and towards a man whom they had approved.

But now reflect who those are that have perverted you, and lessened the renown of your far-famed brotherly love.

It is disgraceful, beloved, yea, highly disgraceful, and unworthy of your Christian profession, that such a thing should be heard of as that the most stedfast and ancient church of the Corinthians should, on account of one or two persons, engage in sedition against its presbyters.

And this rumour has reached not only us, but those also who are unconnected with us; so that, through your infatuation, the name of the Lord is blasphemed, while danger is also brought upon yourselves.

Chapter XLVIII (48). Let us therefore, with all haste, put an end to this [state of things]; and let us fall down before the Lord, and beseech Him with tears, that He would mercifully be reconciled to us, and restore us to our former seemly and holy practice of brotherly love.

For [such conduct] is the gate of righteousness, which is set open for the attainment of life, as it is written, “Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go in by them, and will praise the Lord:

this is the gate of the Lord: the righteous shall enter in by it.”

Although, therefore, many gates have been set open, yet this gate of righteousness is that gate in Christ by which blessed are all they that have entered in and have directed their way in holiness and righteousness, doing all things without disorder.

Let a man be faithful: let him be powerful in the utterance of knowledge; let him be wise in judging of words; let him be pure in all his deeds;

yet the more he seems to be superior to others [in these respects], the more humble-minded ought he to be, and to seek the common good of all, and not merely his own advantage.

Chapter LI (51). Let us therefore implore forgiveness for all those transgressions which through any [suggestion] of the adversary we have committed. And these who have been the leaders of sedition and disagreement ought to have respect to the common hope.

Chapter LIV (54). Who then among you is noble-minded? who compassionate? who full of love?

Let him declare, “If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away whithersoever ye desire, and I will do whatever the majority commands; only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it.”

He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him. For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof.”

These things they who live a godly life that is never to be repented of, both have done and always will do.

Chapter LVII (57). Ye therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts.

Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue. For it is better for you that ye should occupy a humble but honourable place in the flock of Christ, than that, being highly exalted, ye should be cast out from the hope of His people.

Chapter LXV (65). Send back speedily to us in peace and with joy these our messengers to you: Claudius Ephebus and Valerius Bito, with Fortunatus; that they may the sooner announce to us the peace and harmony we so earnestly desire and long for [among you], and that we may the more quickly rejoice over the good order re-established among you.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, and with all everywhere that are the called of God through Him, by whom be to Him glory, honour, power, majesty, and eternal dominion, from everlasting to everlasting. Amen.
Irenaeus, as has been already noted, knows of an epistle of this type:
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3. 3:3 The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. ...

In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels.

From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now [i.e., in Irenaeus' time, ca 150-180 CE] propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things.
It is clear that the epistle he read included at least some of the homilies and sermons I have excluded above, so if a hypothetical "original" letter had existed, it predates his time (roughly 180 CE) as his version is clearly expanded by sermons of the type we see in the two surviving manuscripts.

I dunno ...

DCH
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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DCHindley wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:20 pm This board and its predecessors (Free Ratio DB and Internet Infidels DB) *used* to be keen on looking at the source texts rather than argumentation by citing authorities about content & dates, but that does not seem to be of interest in this thread.
i think it's of interest. I appreciated the table you provided on the first page of the thread, even though I didn't comment.
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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DCHindley wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:20 pm This board and its predecessors (Free Ratio DB and Internet Infidels DB) *used* to be keen on looking at the source texts rather than argumentation by citing authorities about content & dates, but that does not seem to be of interest in this thread.
[edited] It's of interest to me, too: see http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=4461
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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DCHindley wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:21 pm
The translator of the 1867 translation (ch 58 & 59 in ANF vol. 1) had a ms (A) that he knew had a lacunae (a break in sense that suggests that some text had been lost of omitted) at the end of ch 57. The translator of 1896, using the newly discovered fuller ms (I) which had additional text between what the older translation had numbered 57 & 58, so the 1896 translation renumbered the chapters. Now, chapters 58-59 of the older translation become chapters 64 & 65 in the newer one. The recovered text is from the end of chapter 57 (there is still a lacunae there even in ms I) to chapter 63. This example is just at the end. The 1896 translator, as quoted above, indicates several other places where similar additional materials were found to be in the more recently discovered ms (I).

More head spinning stuff. :crazy:

DCH
This is fascinating David - thanks again. The table presentation of the two translations is particularly helpful.

I'd like to follow up the two quotes I've bolded above.

1. ms A and the lacunae.

I'm not a professional scholar, so I'm unfamiliar with the term 'lacunae', but google tells me it's a gap in the text. You seem to suggest that in this MS the lacunae is a "break in sense" - could you explain what this means pls?

2. Additional materials in ms I

Given that additional materials were found in ms I, does this indicate that ms I has non-original materials, or is it more likely that ms A has had original materials removed?
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:38 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:52 am(I'm avoiding any material known only from Eusebius or I would add more evidence)
Why would Eusebius himself not count as evidence for this particular line of inquiry? The claim was made that Clement was not attached to the letter until the latter part of the fourth century or later:
The earliest manuscript does not ascribe an author but instead entitles it "The Letter from the Romans to the Corinthians". This suggests the attachment of the Clement legend to this manuscript happened sometime between the late 4th century and the middle of the 5th century.
If Eusebius himself does not predate the late fourth century, when did he write?
Hi Ben
I regard it as certain that Eusebius attributed the letter to Clement c 315 CE. (and hence before the late 4th century) I was exploring the strength of our evidence for pre-Eusebian attribution.

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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

Post by andrewcriddle »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:23 am Andrew,

I can understand not being sure about the author's place in episcopal succession at Rome due to contradictory lists that were in circulation, but what do you think about the authenticity of the letter itself?

Naturally, the fact that two mss exist with one (ms. A) not having certain text (e.g., the prayer to God ch 58-63 of ms. I), suggests that it had undergone editorial changes as it was copied, so was not on the level of a sacred writing.

Reading the newer translation (I'm sure newer ones exist as well, but under copyright) I cannot tell off the bat what exactly the purpose was. It claims to be a letter asking for the factions contending with one another at Corinth to reconcile and reinstate the original episcopal succession, but it also comes across as a little "preachy" as if it's actual function was as an apology for episcopal succession.

The differing order of the lists of episcopal succession at Rome suggests that their own succession history was, perhaps, not as clean and trouble free as later affirmed. The Roman church(es) later managed to reconcile *all* of the early episcopal leaders to the church order as practiced in the time of reconciliation, so the letter's peachiness may thus represent the newer POV in which episcopal succession and what functions should be submissive to others was finally established.

Was there, though, an original letter from one Clement representing the church at Rome pleading that the church at Corinth stop standing divided? Was it then expanded into the long winded letter we have preserved in mss A & I?

My personal opinion is to date something showing this level of organization and doctrine later than earlier, so I have been accepting a date in or just after the times of emperor Domitian, although hesitantly, as things have always seemed more developed than I think would be likely by then.

I could modify this to be a possible date for the letter's core, but the way it is now seems to be even later, maybe mid 2nd century or even later. Now we are in the time of Irenaeus, who clearly knows of such a letter from a Clement in Rome to factions at Corinth in some form. He really does not have a lot to say. Then there is the letter of Dionysius, bishop of Corinth (ca 150 CE?), in which he claims that factions have taken some of his letters of exhortation and modified them to present heretical ideas foreign to Dionysius' POV.

Them Corinthians ...

DCH
Hi David

Given the versional evidence, I regard the omission of the final chapters by Alexandrinus as secondary. I would date the letter c 100 CE and regard it as probably written by Clement who was not a bishop in the later sense. (The shepherd of Hermas possibly provides us with a better picture of Clement's role in the Roman church)

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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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Like the Shepherd is a reliable document ...
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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DCHindley wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:20 pm
Irenaeus, as has been already noted, knows of an epistle of this type:
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3. 3:3 The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. ...

In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels.

From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood [i.e., in Irenaeus' time, ca 150-180 CE], and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things.
... if a hypothetical "original" letter had existed, it predates his time (roughly 180 CE) as his version is clearly expanded by sermons of the type we see in the two surviving manuscripts.
"In the time of this Clement ... the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians ..."

= Irenaeus does not directly attribute the letter to that Clement.

Also, "no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth" = Irenaeus seems to be documenting lack of growth in the church in Corinth.
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:42 pm Like the Shepherd is a reliable document ...
As far as Clement is concerned, it doesn't matter how accurate the Shepherd is.

It seems the mention that one of two little books shalt be sent to Clement and he then shall send it to the foreign cities, "for this is his duty", is the basis for a series of assertions that Clement was a bishop and letter writer.
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Re: The closing chapters of 1 Clement

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I want to turn my attention now to Dionysius bishop of Corinth. Per Eusebius's HE, our only surviving source about him (I think):

HE 4.23.1, 8-10
Chapter XXIII.—Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, and the Epistles which he wrote.1245
1. And first we must speak of Dionysius, who was appointed bishop of the church in Corinth, and communicated freely of his inspired labors not only to his own people, but also to those in foreign lands, and rendered the greatest service to all in the catholic epistles which he wrote to the churches.

9. There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter,1259 who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle, in which he commends the practice of the Romans which has been retained down to the persecution in our own days. His words are as follows:

10. “For from the beginning it has been your practice to do good to all the brethren in various ways, and to send contributions to many churches in every city. Thus relieving the want of the needy, and making provision for the brethren in the mines by the gifts which you have sent from the beginning, you Romans keep up the hereditary customs of the Romans, which your blessed bishop Soter has not only maintained, but also added to, furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints, and encouraging the brethren from abroad with blessed words, as a loving father his children.”

11. In this same epistle [addressed to Soter] he [Dionysius, Bp. of Corinth] makes mention also of Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians,1260 showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: “To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your [i.e., Soter's] epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”
This suggests to me that what he knew of this epistle of Clement to the Corinthians was read as edifying material, much like he enjoyed reading Soter's epistle addressed to his Church (not extant). I don't know if this might have included all the moralizing sermons, which impressed Irenaeus no end, but he does not mention anything like them.

Soter's letter, seemed to have to do with charity and preserving apostolic tradition, a subject that overlaps somewhat with what the letter to the Corinthians attributed to Clement says when it advocated the system of apostolic succession and submission to the authorities so generated.

If it is correct that Dionysius flourished ca 150 CE, I'd say that a letter purporting to be from the Roman Church to the Corinthian Church was known to him, but may or may not have included all the sermons. It certainly did have to do with accepting a uniform system of "apostolic succession" for appointing local church leaders.

The concept of "Bishops" over large regions like the city of Rome may not have even existed when the anonymous Letter from the Romans to the Corinthians was first written. All that talk is about Presbyters (elders) appointed by the laying on of hands by Apostles and the elders appointed by them, not of Bishops.

However, I'll concede that Dionysius definitely felt that the apostolic appointment made one a Bishop (overseer), not just a Presbyter (still important, though, but not yet evolved into the "priests" as we know of since the middle ages), and *he* thought this was written by Clement, bishop of Rome.

Irenaeus also knew of such a letter of Clement to the church of Corinth, ca 180 CE, but for sure the letter he knew contained moralizing similar to what we see in the preserved mss. A & I.

DCH
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