Pope St Clement 1

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MrMacSon
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Re: Pope St Clement 1

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:57 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:15 pm
And let us not forget that there is a Hermas mentioned in Romans 16.14, too.
and in Acts 14 after Paul had faith-healed a lame man, he is called Hermes -

Acts 14:12 (NIV) -
11 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker.


andrewcriddle
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Re: Pope St Clement 1

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:42 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:42 pm
MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:34 pm
.

Interestingly, 'Clement of Alexandria' (Greek: Κλήμης ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς; c. 150 – c. 215) was also named Titus Flavius Clemens
  • (ie. the same name as the late first century consul some have speculated might have been Pope Clement (Latin: Clemens Romanus; Greek: Κλήμης Ῥώμης; died 99)).
The Clement from the Pauline letter has certainly been speculated to be identical with Clement of Rome; the consul has been speculated by a few to be identical with Clement of Rome; and of course the consul and the Alexandrian father share this name, Titus Flavius Clemens. Serious question: other than this fleeting overlap, how often has Clement of Rome been confused with Clement of Alexandria? (I do not mean simply reading the name "Clement" and momentarily wondering which one was meant; I mean actually confusing the biographical details, writings, or legends of the two men.)
The reference to Clement in pseudo-Dionysius
But, if the Philosopher Clemens thinks good, that the higher amongst beings should be called exemplars in relation to something, his statement advances, not through correct and perfect and simple names. But, when we have conceded even this, to be correctly said, we must call to mind the Word of God, which says, "I have not shewn thee these things for the purpose of going after them, but that through the proportionate knowledge of these we may be led up to the Cause of all, as we are capable."
probably involves a confusion between Clement of Rome from c 100 CE and Clement of Alexandria the Christian philosopher from c 200 CE.

The references in the sacra parallela to otherwise unknown letters of Clement of Alexandria may involve a confusion between Clement of Rome (to whom numerous pseudonymous works were attributed) and Clement of Alexandria.

Andrew Criddle

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Pope St Clement 1

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:02 am

Okay, good to know. Thanks, Andrew.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

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MrMacSon
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Re: Pope St Clement 1

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:35 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:20 pm

Irenaeus, as has been already noted, knows of an epistle of this type:
Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 3. 3:3 The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. ...

In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels.

From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood [i.e., in Irenaeus' time, ca 150-180 CE], and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things.
... if a hypothetical "original" letter had existed, it predates his time (roughly 180 CE) as his version is clearly expanded by sermons of the type we see in the two surviving manuscripts.
"In the time of this Clement ... the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians ..."

= Irenaeus does not directly attribute the letter to that Clement.

Also, "no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth"= Irenaeus seems to be documenting lack of growth in the church in Corinth.

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Re: Pope St Clement 1

Post by MrMacSon » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:05 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:28 pm

I want to turn my attention now to Dionysius bishop of Corinth. Per Eusebius's H.E., our only surviving source about him (I think):

H.E. 4.23.1, 8-10
Chapter XXIII.—Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, and the Epistles which he wrote.

1. And first we must speak of Dionysius, who was appointed bishop of the church in Corinth, and communicated freely of his inspired labors not only to his own people, but also to those in foreign lands, and rendered the greatest service to all in the catholic epistles which he wrote to the churches.

9. There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle, in which he commends the practice of the Romans which has been retained down to the persecution in our own days. His words are as follows:

10. “For from the beginning it has been your practice to do good to all the brethren in various ways, and to send contributions to many churches in every city. Thus relieving the want of the needy, and making provision for the brethren in the mines by the gifts which you have sent from the beginning, you Romans keep up the hereditary customs of the Romans, which your blessed bishop Soter has not only maintained, but also added to, furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints, and encouraging the brethren from abroad with blessed words, as a loving father his children.”

11. In this same epistle [addressed to Soter] he [Dionysius, Bp. of Corinth] makes mention also of Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: “To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your [i.e., Soter's] epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”
DCH
Note the very last statement in 11 - "...as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement."
  • -- not by Clement (one would need to read the Greek, I presume).
I wonder if 'former epistle' means a now-sidelined epistle?

DCHindley wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:28 pm
The concept of "Bishops" over large regions like the city of Rome may not have even existed when the anonymous Letter from the Romans to the Corinthians was first written. All that talk is about Presbyters (elders) appointed by the laying on of hands by Apostles, and the elders appointed by them, not of Bishops.
They may have been 'appointed' by later writers too.

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Re: Pope St Clement 1

Post by Stuart » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:00 pm

Here is the real question. Where did this legend originate?

The salutations in the Pauline letters are entirely secondary, not a one of them attested in the Marcionite collection of ten letters. Chapter 16 of Romans is addressed to Phoebe (16:1) and from somebody name Tertius (16:22) staying at Giaus' house (16:23) at a time when Christianity had become widespread in society (sounds like the 3rd century) such that a city treasurer is staying with Giaus and Tertius. None of these salutations are of any theological importance, they merely are a list of names to impress or show some family or church has status by being attached to such and such legend.

But at what point would such things be beneficial? During the early evangelical phase of the church when Paul (the legend as stand in for the first wandering monks evangelizing) is founding small house churches and converting maybe one or two families in a town or city? Probably not. We are looking a couple generations down the road when there is competition among churches for local or regional priority or when families want to be ranked ahead of others for their early pedigree.

Thus it's sort of circular logic to use the names in the salutations of the Pauline letters to authenticate legend, when they appeared almost certainly in those letters because they were legend (already).

Even if you buy an authentic core to the Pauline letters, these salutations cannot be part of it, nor can many of the references to Acts, both Canonical and Non Canonical. The use of legend for persuasion shows a much older operation than first generation evangelism. It's like Mormons tracing their family back to those who actually knew Smith or Young. It indicates a shift from an informal start up to a more mature operation.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Re: Pope St Clement 1

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:18 am

Identity

Origen identifies Pope Clement with St. Paul's fellow-labourer (Philippians 4:3, "..help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life."), and so do Eusebius, Epiphanius, and Jerome — but this Clement 'was probably a Philippian'.

In the middle of the nineteenth century it was the custom to identity the pope with the consul of 95, T. Flavius Clemens [a nephew [or maybe great-nephew] of Vespasian], who was martyred by his first cousin, the Emperor Domitian [when consul]. But the ancients never suggest this, and the pope is 'said to have lived on till the reign of Trajan'. It is unlikely that he was a member of the imperial family. The continual use of the Old Testament in his Epistle suggested to Lightfoot, Funk, Nestle, and others that he was of Jewish origin ...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm ['scare' quotation marks mine]

From The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, by Philostratus (tr. F.C. Conybeare, 1912, at sacred-texts.com), Book VIII -

.
CHAPTER XXV

And now the gods were about to cast down Domitian from his 'presidency of mankind'. For it happened that he had just slain Clemens, a man of consular rank, to whom he had lately given his own sister in marriage; and he issued a command about the third or fourth day after the murder, that she also should follow her husband and join him. Thereupon Stephanus, a freed man of the lady, he who was signified by the form of the late portent, whether because the latest victim's fate rankled in his mind, or the fate of all others, made an attempt upon the tyrant's life worthy of comparison with the feats of the champions of Athenian liberty.

For he concealed a dagger against his left fore-arm, and carrying his hand in a bandage, as if it were broken, he approached the Emperor as he left the law-court, and said: "I would have a private interview with you, my prince, for I have important news to communicate to you."

The latter did not refuse him the audience, but took him apart into the men's apartment where he transacted business of state. Whereupon the assassin said; "Your bitter enemy, Clemens, is not dead, as you imagine, but he lives and I know where he is; and he is making ready to attack you."

When the emperor uttered a loud cry over this information, before he could recover his composure, Stephanus threw himself upon him and drawing the dagger from the hand which he had trussed up, he stabbed him in the thigh, inflicting a wound which was not immediately mortal, though it was well-timed in view of the struggle that followed. The Emperor was still strong and full of bodily vigor, although he was about five and forty years of age; and in spite of the wound he closed with his assailant, and throwing him down, kneeled upon him and dug out his eyes and crushed his cheeks with the stand of a gold cup which lay thereby for use in sacred ceremonies, at the same time calling upon Athena to assist him. Thereupon his bodyguard, realizing that he was in distress, rushed into the room pell-mell, and dispatched the tyrant, who had already swooned.
CHAPTER XXVI

Although this deed was done in Rome, Apollonius was a spectator of it in Ephesus. For about midday he was delivering an address in the groves of the colonnade, just at the moment when it all happened in the palace at Rome; and first he dropped his voice, as if he were terrified, and then, though with less vigor than was usual with him, he continued his exposition, like one who between his words caught glimpses of something foreign to his subject, and at last he lapsed into silence, like one who has been interrupted in his discourse. And with an awful glance at the ground, and stepping forward three or four paces from his pulpit, he cried: "Smite the tyrant, smite him"—not like one who derives from some looking glass a faint image of the truth, but as one who sees things with his own eyes, and is taking part in a tragedy.

All Ephesus—for all Ephesus was at his lecture—was struck dumb with astonishment; but he, pausing like those who are trying to see and wait until their doubts are ended, said: "Take heart, gentlemen, for the tyrant has been slain this day; and why do I say today? Now it is, by Athena, even now at the moment I uttered my words, and then lapsed into silence." The inhabitants of Ephesus thought that this was a fit of madness on his part; and although they were anxious that it should be true, yet they were anxious about the risk they ran in giving ear to his words, whereupon he added: "I am not surprised at those who do not yet accept my story, for not even all Rome as yet is cognizant of it. But behold, Rome begins to know it: for the rumor runs this way and that, and thousands now are convinced of it ...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aot/laot/laot44.htm


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