Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

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Giuseppe
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Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:35 am

Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Jesus is identified with the same attributes by which a famous Messianist was identified (by the same kew-words: 'Joseph', 'James', Judas', 'Simon'):

"And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified…"

(Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XX: 5.2)


...to make again the point that he is identified (and hoped in) as the davidic Messiah, by the Jews. But Jesus is not the davidic Messiah. And especially he is not the demiurge, the 'carpenter'.


So a 'James' (just as a 'Simon', or a 'Judas', or a 'Joseph') could be the 'brother of the Lord', if this Lord was the same Creator, the god of the Jews (the 'carpenter'), in opposition to another god.

From this point of view, Gal 1:19 could be interpolated by Marcion himself to describe the judaizing James as brother of the his god, the demiurge, and not of Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:41 am

An alternative: the people of Nazareth stand for the Gnostic Nazarenes. They reject a Jesus considered Son of YHWH (for them, the mere 'carpenter' or 'inferior demiurge') and of the gnostic Sophia ("Mary"). By so doing, they reject the names of the 'Brothers of YHWH' (friends of God): James, Simon, Judas, Joseph, etc. Not coincidentially, these names were also the names of the famous OT patriarchs, considered 'friends of god', i.e., in particular relation with YHWH. And as such despised by the Gnostics.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:49 am

So, to say that Jesus is ''from Nazareth'', is an explicit confession that Jesus came from the Gnostic sect of the Nazarenes, who rejected the entire OT and hated the same creator, the god of the Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:53 am

Note that the people of Nazaret are the only people, in all the Gospel of Mark, who rejected Jesus even if (or, more probably, just because) they have the absolute certainty that the Jesus met by them is Jewish of origin.

Whereas the scribes and pharisees hated Jesus as basically not-Jewish in all the his deeds and words.

This is strong clue that the people of Nazaret allegorize a Gnostic sect who hated YHWH.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:13 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:35 am

Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Jesus is identified with the same attributes by which a famous Messianist was identified (by the same [key-names]: 'Joseph', 'James', Judas', 'Simon'):

"... the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon, whom Alexander commanded to be crucified…" Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XX: 5.2

Interesting. Has anyone else noted that alignment?

(Lena Einhorn doesn't seem to have in A Shift in Time though she does quote Mk 6:1-3 in conjunction with Matt 13:54-56 and Luke 4:16-23 in relation to how Jesus first came to Nazareth and how he does not seem to be recognised (p. 103)).

Matt. 13: 55– 56a -
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph/Joses and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?”


Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:11 am

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:13 am
Interesting.
no, it's not. I would like that you find interesting the other point made by me.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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John T
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by John T » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:50 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:49 am
So, to say that Jesus is ''from Nazareth'', is an explicit confession that Jesus came from the Gnostic sect of the Nazarenes, who rejected the entire OT and hated the same creator, the god of the Jews.
I'm confused. :scratch:

I thought the atheist/mythicist viewpoint was the town Nazareth did not exist during the time of Jesus. Therefore, no Nazareth no Jesus.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift

Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:10 am

One of the many mythicist hypotheses to explain "Nazaret" is that an entire town was invented as place of provenance for Jesus to mask (or to "explain") the fact that the early (pre-?)Christian sect was that of the nazarenes.

So if these nazarenes were Gnostic dualists (i.e. they rejected the Jewish god and the Torah), then "Mark" would have them to reject Jesus just as Son of YHWH (the demiurge/carpenter) and brother of the OT patriarchs (James, Simon, Joseph, Judah).

The great problem with this (otherwise optimal) hypothesis is that the nazarenes, as we know from Epiphanius, adored YHWH and the Torah.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:43 am

Well: the evidence is not so obscure.

I take the particular following words from here:

According to Epiphanius of Salamis in Panarion, there were several key features of the Nasaraeans:

They kept the Sabbath, practiced circumcision, and abstained from meat
They were similar to the Hemerobaptists and Ossaeans (Essenes)
They were located along the Jordan River, north of Galilee
They *did not* believe in fate or astrology (this may suggest Sadducee association, but is in contrast to Essenes and Elcesites)
Most importantly: They believed that the books of the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the [Greek] Old Testament) did not represent Moses’ teachings; rather, they believed these scriptures are incorrect, and that Moses handed down other, secret books, which the Nasaraeans claimed to possess.
The Jewish influence within the Nasaraean community is undeniable. Yet even Epiphanius puzzled over how they could so staunchly reject Judaism’s primary scriptures, given their reverence for the prophets and their Jewish practices.
But once more, I shall also pass by the sect’s strangeness and foolishness. I am content with the few words I have said, inserted here with my limited ability to oppose the error of the sect we have been discussing
.

Epiphanius recognized a clear contrast between the Nasar and Orthodox Judaism.

Yet, their rejection of canonical Genesis suggests they must have had some sort of alternative creation story that was inconsistent enough with canonical Genesis that they felt the need to reject the Pentateuch’s version.

Did they reject the Creator?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: Was James the 'brother of the Demiurge'?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:49 am

The Nazarenes were the flip side of the Ebionites. While the Ebionites rejected outright Paul and the virgin birth, the Nazarenes accepted the virgin birth, but denied Paul of his status as Apostle (despite what Acts of the Apostles says). The Ebionites favoured bar Kochba; the Nazarenes rejected him. (Note: the nativity scene in Matthew is likely a synthesis of these two forces). The Nazarenes, although rejecting Paul, made use of his books (Lucian states that he was a rather prolific writer and widely regarded as a teacher), and recontextualized them after Paul's excommunication from the Community.

But they did not reject the creator, Giuseppe, nor think he was evil.

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