Ulan wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:15 am
John2 wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:16 pm
Regarding Jesus "eating and drinking" in Luke 7:33-35, I see it as being comparable to Luke 5:29-33:
Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”
Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
They said to him, “John’s disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking.”
Just because the Pharisees interpreted John's fasting as meaning he had a demon doesn't mean he actually had one. And just because they interpreted Jesus eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners as meaning he was glutton and a winebibber doesn't mean he actually was one.
While I like the nazirite explanation, the following statment from Mk 14 doesn't make much sense if he never drank any wine:
24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the[g] covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly I tell you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Of course, if you think this is an interpolation, you have more options. However, why stress you would not drink any wine again
if you didn't do so until that point?
On the other hand, verse 25 pretty much looks like nazirite vow in and itself. Most vows of this kind were rather short term. If this was a nazirite vow, then this would also explain why Jesus had to die as the first of the crucified. The sacrifice wasn't made in the presence of dead people that way.
Another option is that we look at a jumbled mess of traditions here.
Great observation, Ulan. As I said, I'm happy either way. If Jesus was not a Nazirite (as per my prior assumption), fine, and if so, fine. At the most thus far (until you pointed out the above), I would say that it's hard to tell for sure. But here is Mark 14:22-25 for me to take a closer look at.
22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.”
23Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. 25“Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
I agree that v. 25 looks like a Nazirite vow, so there's at least that. Prior to that (and prior to my consideration of this passage), Jesus appears to me to walk a fine line. I'm still not convinced Jairus' daughter was dead in Mk. 5 or that Jesus drank wine in Luke 7. But yeah, Jesus says here, " I will not drink again
from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new," and that sounds like he has drank wine before. But how long ago was that, I wonder? If Luke 7 isn't certain (and it doesn't seem to be to me, at least), what else is there? Is there not even one, clear reference to Jesus drinking wine somewhere?
Even the above passage, for example, says "while they were eating" (which incudes Jesus), but then it doesn't actually say that Jesus drank wine, only that he "took a cup," not "his"
cup, though perhaps it could be inferred that it is "his"? No translation I see says "his" anyway, but there doesn't seem to be any kind "a" or "the" or "his" or such in the Greek. But who else's
cup could it be, I suppose. But still, how certain is it that Jesus drank from this cup? At least with respect to Jesus eating, Mark is much clearer.
12On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.”
16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me.”
19They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, “Surely you don’t mean me?”
20“It is one of the Twelve,” he replied, “one who dips bread into the bowl with me."
Why is there nothing like this about Jesus drinking wine in Mark, not even in Mk. 14:22-25?
And again, I'm not trying to be nitpicky, just taking a closer look at what's there and setting aside for a moment my assumptions that Jesus did
drink wine and touch dead people.
Light the song with sense and color, hold away despair. More than this I will not ask, faced with mysteries dark and vast.