On Cerinthus and the final of Mark

[Giuseppe]

The separationist Cerinthus proclaimed that Jesus will raise only at the end of the days.

This may give a suggestive clue of the true final of proto-Mark, assuming that Mark is separationist just as Cerinthus was separationist.

After that Christ abandoned Jesus on the cross, Jesus died.

And Jesus will be risen only with the entire Church at the collective resurrection of any Christian.

[Secret Alias]

Where do you get this from? Irenaeus our earliest source says:

Cerinthus, again, a man who was educated in the wisdom of the Egyptians, taught that the world was not made by the primary God, but by a certain Power far separated from him, and at a distance from that Principality who is supreme over the universe, and ignorant of him who is above all. He represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was more righteous, prudent, and wise than other men. Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the unknown Father, and performed miracles. But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassible, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being.

I am actually quite curious - at what point with your constant errors do admit you don't know what you are talking about?

[Giuseppe]

I know well that passage from Irenaeus but we have another info about Cerinthus where he is said to proclaim a Jesus Risen only at the end of the world.

Now, if we assume that proto-Mark ended only with the burial of Jesus, the midrash from Isaiah 53:9 takes a new meaning: "And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death".

The tomb of a rich man is different from the tomb of any other man because it is a tomb that will survive longer. A tomb that is designed to be open after more than only three days.

So the company of the ungodly is explained too: the man Jesus had to be buried with the ungodly for a long period of time. Until the end of the world, when he will be the first to be risen.

[Giuseppe]

Cerinthus is also said to have taught that Jesus will be raised from the dead at the Last Day, when all men will rise with Him.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerinthus

I want to be more sure about the source. Is Cerinthus talking about Jesus or Christ as the Risen at the last day?

[Giuseppe]

Cerinthus distinguished between Jesus and Christ. Jesus was mere man, though eminent in holiness. He suffered and died and was raised from the dead, or, as some say Cerinthus taught, He will be raised from the dead at the Last Day and all men will rise with Him. At the moment of baptism, Christ or the Holy Ghost was sent by the Highest God, and dwelt in Jesus teaching Him, what not even the angels knew, the Unknown God. This union between Jesus and Christ continues till the Passion, when Jesus suffers alone and Christ returns to heaven. Cerinthus believed in a happy millennium which would be realized here on earth previous to the resurrection and the spiritual kingdom of God in heaven.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03539a.htm

[Giuseppe]

It makes a lot of sense: the crucified and died Jesus remained a mere man even after the death, as measure of the his holiness and/or expiation and/or human misery in comparison with the divine Christ.

But in the whiletime the salvation (a privileged status of being possessed by the divine Christ) could be shared by all the church for 1000 years (=the kingdom of Christ on the earth previous to resurrection).

[Giuseppe]

and dwelt in Jesus teaching Him, what not even the angels knew, the Unknown God.

Curiously, John the Baptist can be considered an "angel" in the ethymological sense of the term: a messenger of divine news. And in Mark he doesn't recognize Jesus from other baptized people.

[Ben C. Smith]

I know well that passage from Irenaeus but we have another info about Cerinthus where he is said to proclaim a Jesus Risen only at the end of the world.

What source is that?

[Secret Alias]

And why don't you, Giuseppe, start the thread by tracking down the actual source for this statement? I really hate this hearsay quality to your reporting. 'Oh I read in a book, oh I read online, this website says ...' Find the source first, then post.

[MrMacSon]

Cerinthus is also said to have taught that Jesus will be raised from the dead at the Last Day, when all men will rise with Him.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerinthus

I want to be more sure about the source. Is Cerinthus talking about Jesus or Christ as the Risen at the last day?

That section of that wikipedia page cites Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.26.1-2.

The other Catholic Encylcopedia page you cite says

The first mention of [Cerinthus'] name and description of his doctrines occur in St. Irenaeus (Adv. Haer., I, c. xxvi; III, c. iii, c. xi), written about 170. Further information is gathered from Presbyter Caius (c. 210) as quoted by Eusebius (Church History III.28.2). Hippolytus, in 'Philosophoumena', VII, 33 (c. 230), practically transcribes Irenaeus. Cerinthus is referred to by Pseudo-Tertullian in 'Adv. Omnes Haeres', written about 240. A fragment of Dionysius of Alexandria, taken from 'De Promissionibus', written about 250, is given by Eusebius after his quotation from Caius. The most detailed account is given by St. Epiphanius (Adv. Haeres, xxviii, written about 390), which, however, on account of its date and character must be used with some caution [yet] A 'good summary' is [supposedly] given by Theodoret ('Haer. Fab.', II, 3, written about 450). http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03539a.htm

The bottom of the wikipedia page has

Works attributed to Cerinthus

Cerinthus may be the alleged recipient of the Apocryphon of James (codex I, text 2 of the Nag Hammadi library), although the name written is largely illegible. A late second century heretical Christian sect (later dubbed the Alogi^) headed by Caius of Rome alleged Cerinthus was the true author of the Gospel of John and Book of Revelation. According to Catholic Encyclopedia: Caius: "Additional light has been thrown on the character of Caius's dialogue against Proclus by Gwynne's publication of some fragments from the work of Hippolytus "Contra Caium" (Hermathena, VI, p. 397* sq.); from these it seems clear that Caius maintained that the Apocalypse of John was a work of the Gnostic Cerinthus."

The Book of Revelation (Apocalypse) is unanimously attributed to John by the early Christians before 'that time'; third century theologian Tertullian indicates that all John's foster churches (i.e., the churches of Asia Minor) when traced back to the beginning all rested on the Apostle John as its author, and that it receives the same recognition in all the other churches.^[31] Irenaeus makes consistent remarks.^[32]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerinthus ... _Cerinthus


^ Dionysius Bar-Salibi [12th c], citing a lost work of Hippolytus (Capita Adversus Caium), writes in his commentary on the Apocalypse,

• 'Hippolytus the Roman says: 'A man appeared, named Caius, saying that the Gospel is not by John, nor the Apocalypse but that it is by Cerinthus the heretic'.'^[2][3]
  
  2 Alogi,” ODCC, 45.
  3 Klijn, Albertus F.J.; Reinink, G.J. (1973). Patristic Evidence for Jewish Christian Sects. Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 273

* That would seem to be an 1888 article here - https://archive.org/details/hermathena22irelgoog


31 Against Marcion 4.5. Tertullian writes, "On the whole, then, if that is evidently more true which is earlier, if that is earlier which is from the very beginning, if that is from the beginning which has the apostles for its authors, then it will certainly be quite as evident, that that comes down from the apostles, which has been kept as a sacred deposit in the churches of the apostles," and, after detailing the churches of Peter and Paul, he continues, "We have also St. John's foster churches. For although Marcion rejects his Apocalypse, the order of the bishops (thereof), when traced up to their origin, will yet rest on John as their author. In the same manner is recognised the excellent source of the other churches."

32 [Iren.] Against Heresies, 5.30.1, when expressing the 'correct reading' of the number of the Beast; c.f. 5.28.2.

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for myself for posterity: information on Caius.

A Christian author who lived about the beginning of the third century. Little is known about his personal history. Eusebius mentions him several times and tells us (Church History VI.20) that he held a disputation with Proclus a Montanist leader at Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (199-217), and calls him a learned man and an ecclesiastic. This latter designation need not imply that he was a priest. Several extracts from the dialogue against Proclus are given by Eusebius (Church History II.25, III.31 and VI.20). Caius is also mentioned by Jerome (de Vir. Ill., 59), Theodoret (Haer. Fab., II, iii), and Nicephorus Callistus (Hist. Eccl., IV, xii-xx), all of whom derived their information from Eusebius.

Photius (Bibl. Cod., 48) gives some additional data drawn from a marginal note in a manuscript copy of the work on the 'Nature of the Universe' in which Caius is said to have been a presbyter of the Roman Church and to have been elected "Bishop of the Gentiles". These indications, resting as they do on a confusion of the Anti-Montanist Caius with Hippolytus, are absolutely valueless.

Additional light has been thrown on the character of Caius's dialogue against Proclus by Gwynne's publication of some fragments from the work of Hippolytus 'Contra Caium' (Hermathena, VI, p. 397 sq.); from these it seems clear that Caius maintained that the Apocalypse of John was a work of the Gnostic Cerinthus.

We owe to Caius a very valuable evidence of the death of Sts. Peter and Paul at Rome, and the public veneration of their remains at Rome about the year 200. It is taken from the above-mentioned disputation with Proclus, and reads as follows (Eusebius, Church History II.25): "But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church". By "trophies" is of course understood the memorial chapel that preserved in each case the body of the Apostle (cf. Barnes, St. Peter in Rome, London, 1900, p 145).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03144a.htm

and 'Fragments of Caius'

• 'From a Dialogue or Disputation Against Proclus' (Preserved in Eusebius' Eccles. Hist., ii. 25; iii. 28, 31.)
• 'Against the Heresy of Artemon' (In Eusebius' Eccl. Hist., v. 28.)
• 'Canon Muratorianus' (In Muratori, V. C. Antiq. Ital. Med. oev., vol. iii. col. 854.)

and 'Caius and Soter, Saints and Popes' - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03144c.htm