The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:13 pm

to klewis,
Yes, I have read both of those web pages. The foundation of what you said in your post and what you say in the web pages hinges around the concept that the text is Jewish and therefore we can throw out the Christian elements.
Yes, but this concept is evidenced, over and over again, in the canonical Revelation. Something you refuse to admit. And I sorted out from the final Revelation all kind of bits which, at first look, are not Christian (but with explained reasons why).
The problem with the approach is that at the time of John's writing there were many Christian who were converted Jews. Luke-Acts is written the exact same way, Jewish poetry throughout, and I am aware of no one who think that originally it was a non-Christian document that was converted to Christian document. Matthew likewise, uses Hebrew poetry throughout and yet are you saying that Matthew was originally not a Christian document.
I said that the author of the most of the Christian additions was the same as for the Jewish original version. He wrote the additions after he turned Christian. Luke-Acts and Matthew are different and I had no reason to think they were Jewish writings later interpolated by Christians.
Another text which started as a strictly Jewish writing and then Christianize in different ways:
The ascension of Isaiah. See http://historical-jesus.info/100.html
I have also pointed out many sections that are Jewish but you have excluded it in your derived source document. The seven churches for example is filled with Jewish imagery, derived from Hebrew Scriptures and with the stroke of the pin you excluded them from the source you view as proof.
The same author wrote the seven letters. So he did not change his method about being inspired by passages from the OT. That does not make the letters as original, and not Christian additions. And I explained my reasons why these letters did not belong to the original version, and that was not by a stroke of the pen.

Here are my comments on Rev 1:1 to 4:1 (from http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html:

1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Notes:
a) But in the Christian version, the first "revelation" (the seven letters) to John is not from an angel, but from Jesus Christ himself (according to 1:17-3:22, "He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore" (1:18, also 2:8) and "Son of God" (2:18, also 2:27,3:5,21)).
Furthermore, in the Christian letters (about admonitions rather than prophecy), there is no hint that any "revelation" here was initially delivered from God to Christ.
b) Furthermore verses 22:6-9 state "... the Lord God ... sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place [God sent his angel, NOT his Christ! And the angel comes from God, NOT from Christ!]
... Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that.
For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets [Christ should normally be mentioned here, if the angel was a servant of Christ], and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God [again, no mention of Christ!].""
c) Verse 22:16 states "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches"
This is consistent with the (christianized) first verse of 'Revelation', but conflicting with 22:6-9 (here the messenger to John is an angel sent by God).
Therefore the words shown in italics are most likely Christian insertions.
2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy,
[only the main part of 'Revelation' is signified here; the (Christian) letters are ignored (as not existing yet!)]
` and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

4 Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne.
[God is supposed to come]

8 (NIV) "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty [the Almighty is God, not Christ!]."

Notes:
a) Later, in the Christian additions, those words would also be attributed to Jesus (22:13--see note at this verse), resulting in an apparent conflict: how could two entities be "the Alpha and the Omega" at the same time?
Furthermore, in the rest of the N.T., God (or Jesus) is never called "the Alpha and the Omega".
b) Occurrences of 'the Beginning and the End' at 1:8 and (identifying Jesus as the speaker, instead of the angel's voice!) 'the Alpha and the Omega' & 'the First and the Last' at 1:11 do not show in most ancient manuscripts and therefore are most likely the result of late interpolations. Ref: List of major textual variants in the New Testament
c) The "Almighty" is always God in the rest of 'Revelation' (4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7,14, 19:15, 21:22).
9 (Darby) I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience,
10 I became in [the] Spirit on the Lord's Day, I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet,

11 saying, What you see write in a book,

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me; and having turned

Note: the seven letters to the churches of Asia, by far the main block of the (about 110 verses) Christian additions are located here (1:12b-3:22) and introduced by 1:4a,5-7 (total: 63 verses). As already noted, they are ignored in the introduction (the revelation to John comes from an angel, not directly from Jesus) and the whole passage, with some outright Christian elements ("I was dead and behold I am alive for ever and ever" 1:18, 2:8, "Son of God" 2:18, 2:27, "I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time" 3:3, 3:5, "the ruler of God's creation" 3:14), looks like an insertion within non-Christian Jewish material.
Remarks:
a) Between 1:1 and 1:10, there are three occurrences of 'Christ' and five of 'Jesus'. However, after 1:10, 'Christ' reappears not before 11:15 and 'Jesus' not before 12:17. It looks the front end was "loaded" with 'Christ' and 'Jesus' to establish (the final) 'Revelation' as Christian right from the start. Also here is located the main statement about Christian faith (1:5-7). Furthermore, most occurrences of the two aforementioned words happen in short clauses outside (i.e. foreign to) the main narration) (1:2,9, 11:15, 12:10,17, 14:12, 17:6, 19:10, 22:20-21).
b) It is likely the Christian additions were made with knowledge of GMatthew:
Mt24:30 "... and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..."
Rev1:7 "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him [from GJohn?]. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. ..."
Nowhere else in 'Revelation' Christ's coming (14:1, 19:11, 20:4, 21:2) is associated with clouds.
Another passage (of the Christian additions) apparently drawn from GMatthew:
Mt24:43-44 "... if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched ... Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." (also in Lk12:39-40)
Rev3:3b "Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."
Furthermore, among the gospels, only in GMatthew the resurrected Jesus has his own throne at some day of Judgment (Mt19:28,25:31). In Rev3:21a, Christ will also have his own (but before, (as the Lamb) he shares God's throne: Rev3:21b). And let's notice Rev20:4 makes allowance for Christ and his disciples to judge from their thrones (as in Mt19:28).
4:1 (NKJV) I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place."

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

klewis
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:48 pm

First, I would like to complement you on this finding:
  • The text you blotted out between Rev 1:12 and 4:1 is a good judgment. I also identified it as part of the the first draft in Revelation. I call this an Author's notation, because when John splits the text that he draws upon he repeats a phrase. In this case, in 1:12 and 4:1 it is the voice that speaks to him. However, the reason why I know this is because I followed the source material https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XT14rX ... sp=sharing.
  • I have read lots of theories of how Revelation was written. Yours was the longest that I have read. Lots of ideas but I have not seen one as long as yours with the text notation. I found this attempt refreshing to see.
Even though it is the longest I have seen, it is too short and does not possess the analysis that you are capable. For example, look at the link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XT14rX ... sp=sharing and compare it to what you have written for Revelation 4:1-8. Revelation chapter 4 is linked in every good commentary with the first chapter of Ezekiel. Yet, your descriptions is derived elsewhere and this is a big oversight. It is just not limited to Revelation 4, but many places.

You make the big assumption that people 2,000 years ago write the same way people write today. They begin at the beginning and end at the ending. Jewish poetry formation does not work that way and every aspect of Revelation is Hebrew poetry.

Furthermore, what if a Jewish-Christian did all that you said, but interjected Jesus and Christian language as part of the process. Your premise cannot and will not consider that as a possibility and thus your methodology will not take that into account. How can you validate it against that proposition? Just because the derive text sounds good to you does not make it a validation process.

Please also understand, your work needs a lot more analysis. Even though it is larger than the ones I have read, is actually very small for the claims you are making. The vast majority of the text is scripture copied elsewhere. Yes, I know it took time to mark the texts the way you did but your notes when combined would take up several pages. Bold claims demand overwhelming evidence. Like you I am making a bold claim on the same subject, years of research. So you can imagine, my reaction when you dismissed my work of 330 pages without even looking at it. Yes, it is expensive, $2.00 on Google books or $2.00 on Kindle, but compared to my competition of $75 to $150 that is a bargain.

I wish you all the luck in your project.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:18 pm

to klewis,
First, I would like to complement you on this finding:
The text you blotted out between Rev 1:12 and 4:1 is a good judgment. I also identified it as part of the the first draft in Revelation. I call this an Author's notation, because when John splits the text that he draws upon he repeats a phrase. In this case, in 1:12 and 4:1 it is the voice that speaks to him. However, the reason why I know this is because I followed the source material https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XT14rX ... sp=sharing.
I have read lots of theories of how Revelation was written. Yours was the longest that I have read. Lots of ideas but I have not seen one as long as yours with the text notation. I found this attempt refreshing to see.
Even though it is the longest I have seen, it is too short and does not possess the analysis that you are capable. For example, look at the link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XT14rX ... sp=sharing and compare it to what you have written for Revelation 4:1-8. Revelation chapter 4 is linked in every good commentary with the first chapter of Ezekiel. Yet, your descriptions is derived elsewhere and this is a big oversight. It is just not limited to Revelation 4, but many places.
The author was not saying he is following a particular passage from the OT. So I think what you call Author's notation is valueless in determining the voice in 1:12 is coming from the same entity as the one in 4:1.
As for analysis, I went as far as I could go. I already told you I was not interested
about from what OT passages the author is getting his inspiration.
Furthermore, what if a Jewish-Christian did all that you said, but interjected Jesus and Christian language as part of the process. Your premise cannot and will not consider that as a possibility and thus your methodology will not take that into account. How can you validate it against that proposition? Just because the derive text sounds good to you does not make it a validation process.
But I demonstrated that a Jewish Christian could not have written many passages in Revelation. So the Christian stuff has to be later additions.
Please also understand, your work needs a lot more analysis. Even though it is larger than the ones I have read, is actually very small for the claims you are making. The vast majority of the text is scripture copied elsewhere. Yes, I know it took time to mark the texts the way you did but your notes when combined would take up several pages. Bold claims demand overwhelming evidence. Like you I am making a bold claim on the same subject, years of research.
Again, I figure my work is complete, regarding what I wanted to show. I am not challenging you about he author drawing from the OT a lot. However I am rather skeptical about what you call author's notations, drafting & redrafting, adding repeatedly stuff from prophetic writings to the text in development: why would "John" go into that kind of trouble? What would be his motivation for doing that?

About the original Revelation not written by a Jewish Christian: Some extracts from my web site http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html, and beyond 4:1.

4.4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting,
  • Note: there is no mention here of the twelve apostles seated on heavenly thrones as in Mt19:28b. Actually, in the complete (Christian) 'Revelation', no apostle is said to be in heaven and, contrary to Mt19:28b, none of them judges anyone. The assumption that the 'twenty-four' includes the twelve apostles, plus the twelve tribal patriarchs would leave out the like of Moses, Jacob, Isaac and Abraham!
    (Note: in the gospels, this foursome is suggested to be alive: Mk9:4, Mt8:11,17:3, Lk9:30,13:28)
    But, from the point of view of an ex-priest, the twenty-four elders, as representatives for each of the original twenty-four courses of priests servicing the temple, make a lot of sense! (Ref: 1Chronicles 24, Josephus' Ant., VII, XIV, 7)
5.4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
  • Note: 5:5 appears to be a Christian interpolation:
    "But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
    Why?
    a) The "Lion" turns out to be the Lamb in the next verse! A same author would not have committed initially such a mismatch.
    b) The previous two verses emphasize that no one (including in heaven) was found. But, regardless, an elder knows otherwise!
    c) The other mentions of 'David' occur only in Christian insertions:
    - 3:7, part of the seven letters to the churches
    - 22:16, as said by Jesus himself
    d) The verse is strategically inserted just before the Lamb appears on the scene, as for suggesting, right from the start, it/he is also Jesus Christ. And in the whole of 'Revelation', the other suggestions the Lamb is Christ are very few:
    - 14:1 (11 'Lamb' & 131 verses later, when "his Father" is mentioned)
    - 17:14 (15 'Lamb' & 179 verses later, when it/he is "Lord of lords and King of kings")
    - 21:14 (20 'Lamb' & 271 verses later, when it/he has/had "twelve apostles")
5.6a And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain,
  • Notes
    a) The Lamb is undoubtedly inspired from Isaiah's suffering servant in 52:13-15 & 53:1-12
    Isaiah53:5-7 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes [wounds] we are healed. ... He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth"]
    Remark: the "suffering servant" is never related to David in the O.T. (and also never as the Son).
    b) This Lamb cannot be the heavenly Jesus because the later is repeatedly placed at the right hand of God in the N.T. (Ro8:24, Col3:1, Hb1:3,8:1,10:12,12:2, 1Pe3:22, Mk14:62,16:19, Mt26:64, Lk22:69, Ac2:33,7:55,56). And, in the whole of 'Revelation', the Lamb is never said to occupy this position.
5.10 (NIV) You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
[the Kingdom to come is to be on earth]
  • Note: let's notice that in the earlier Christian passage:
    1:6 "and [Jesus Christ] has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God ..."
    there is no mention the elects ("they") will reign collectively. Why? Likely because the ruler is already designated: Christ, "the ruler of the kings of the earth" (1:5)
5.12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
[this Lamb is never said to have been crucified, just slain]

6.10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
  • Notes:
    a) Here God himself is judging (as occurring in 20:12-13 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God ... they were judged ..."). Consequently this judgment cannot be the one of verse 20:4 (ushering Christ's one thousand year kingdom on earth, part of the Christian additions). Why? Because there the judgment is NOT administered by God himself: "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them ..."
    b) The whole book relishes the idea of revenge against Gentiles. Also to be noted: here, God is called to avenge the Jews killed in the holocaust of 70 C.E. However, in the synoptic gospels (parable of the tenants, Mt21:33-45) God is avenging his Son by killing the same Jews (quite a different viewpoint!).
6.16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
  • Note: the word in italics are in the canonical (Christian) version, but nowhere else the wrath of the Lamb appears. Instead, God's wrath is stated in 11:18, 14:10,19, 15:1,7, 16:1,19, 19:15.
To be continued ...
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:18 pm

to klevis,

7.3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
[these "servants" of God are still on earth and alive]

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
[very Jewish. Later (14:4), we'll learn that these God's servants are virgins. Consequently, for example, Peter, who had been married, could not have been among them: not Christian at all!]

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

9.4b or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
[the 144,000 virgin Jews are still on earth]

20a But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent
[repentance is presented as a way for salvation from further punishment]
20b of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.


21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
[not all Gentiles could have been that bad!]
  • (Remark: the rest of humanity is all humans minus the 144,000 virgin Jews. That would include Gentile Christians who next will suffer a lot:
    9.4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth,
    or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

    [the 144,000 virgin Jews are still on earth]
    5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.)
10.10 Then I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter."
  • Notes:
    a) ...
    b) The next verse is: "And he said to me, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings."
    It appears to be an interpolation because:
    - the Greek does not read "he" but "they". It seems the interpolator forgot John was being addressed by only an angel.
    - it is out of context. Why would John be reminded to prophecy at that particular instant
11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise
[implying the vision came as a dream during sleeping]
` and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.
[the author was in Jerusalem before its destruction]

2 "But leave out the court [of the Gentiles] which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they [the Romans] will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
  • Note: that's three & a half years and inspired from the revised book of Daniel. The apocalypse was foreseen for the winter of 73-74 C.E., after the Romans conquered & destroyed the city in the summer of 70 C.E., with the 10th legion staying behind in the ruins of Jerusalem (Josephus' Wars, VII, I, 2). The later statement could NOT have been written after 74 C.E.
11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
  • Note: another call for the Kingdom to come on earth. Let's notice that the Christian expression 'kingdom of God' is not used (here and the whole book). And according to the two preceding and following verses, "Lord" stands for God Almighty, not a Messiah.
    The canonical (Christian) version has "... "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
    Let's notice the addition in italics. But despite the dual kingship (more so with Christ as "ruler over the kings of the earth" in verse 1:5), "He" and not "They" "shall reign"! Would it be a blatant grammatical error or "and of His Christ" part of the latter Christian additions?
    Before answering that, let's notice our author was not objecting to multiple rulers: why would he in 11:5 ("He")?
    5:10 (already quoted) and
    22:5b "And they [the "saints" in the new Jerusalem] shall reign forever and ever"
    Indeed, the combination of "our Lord and of His Christ" and "He shall reign" indicates an earlier text was christianized.
To be continued ...
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

klewis
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:45 pm

Bernard,
Your footer says, "I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed", yet every post in this thread has been that your work is proof and my work sucks and not worth reading. So there is nothing more I can talk about. I provided the first chapter of my book on another post, so you can attack it there and list all of its failings in that post. It is unfair and off topic for us to hijack this post.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:09 pm

to klewis,
I mean no harm but you challenged me about the original version of Revelation was strictly Jewish (as written by a non-Christian Jew), and then added on later by Christians.
Can you answer these questions, before going any further:
However I am rather skeptical about what you call author's notations, drafting & redrafting, adding repeatedly stuff from prophetic writings to the text in development: why would "John" go into that kind of trouble? What would be his motivation for doing that?
I don't know why you accuse me for not following what I wrote in my footer: "I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed". I certainly did not curtail your freedom of expression.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

klewis
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:19 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:09 pm
to klewis,
I mean no harm but you challenged me about the original version of Revelation was strictly Jewish (as written by a non-Christian Jew), and then added on later by Christians.
Can you answer these questions, before going any further:
However I am rather skeptical about what you call author's notations, drafting & redrafting, adding repeatedly stuff from prophetic writings to the text in development: why would "John" go into that kind of trouble? What would be his motivation for doing that?
I don't know why you accuse me for not following what I wrote in my footer: "I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed". I certainly did not curtail your freedom of expression.

Cordially, Bernard
Several issues, first, we both are taking a different approach. My approach is purely a literary one, where I know the sources that he uses and the order and method in which he inserted the text from those sources. From the start, your reply was, it is too complicated and not free. Meanwhile, every aspect of the conversation was your desire for me to read your work and you phrase in terms of proof. From that perspective, that you have the proof, means that any and all ideas outside of yours are not possible. Thus, the conversation of exchange of ideas cannot begin.

Much of my work on Google books and Kindle can be viewed for free. The fact that you never bothered to even look at or thumb through the many examples solidifies my assessment.

For example, the the question of being skeptical of author's notation is, yet here are several examples of it in which source texts have been split and a repeating phrase is used in both places:
  • Why the Mighty Angel is in 3 Places https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eC1GQr ... sp=sharing
    Note in the last Mighty Angel passage in which the content of Jeremiah is brought in. Note that the scroll text was part of the Jeremiah text but the millstone remains to form a different passage about the destruction of the Harlot. That is just one of thousands of smoking guns in my work
Why would John write that way, is an interesting question indeed and it is answered in my book. It is the same way that the author of Ezekiel took Exodus 19 to the end of the book and crafted it in to his own work (See my article in Journal of Higher Criticism, Vol 14:1, 2019). It is the same way that the author of Matthew depicts Jesus as the New Moses (killing of babies, fulfiller of the law, 5 great speeches as in the Torah). It is the same way that Luke and Acts are a simple parallel, it is the same way that Genesis and Exodus forms a Chiasmus. The list goes on, it is how the Biblical writers wrote and it is not the way we write.

This is a literary, science that I have spent a decade perfecting. The process that I use in Revelation to recover prior drafts works in all the books I listed in the prior paragraph. I am currently taking the same process, and using it to illustrate how we can recover prior drafts of Genesis-Exodus. Again, I have an article published in the Journal of Higher Criticism. The fact that it works on those works as well as the book of Revelation shows its values.

Please understand, I know there is a historical context, construct in which Revelation was written in. I did not cover it in my book because it would take away the process of explaining how Revelation was written. It should not be taken as I am not aware of the historical context, just that the book is 380 pages long and I don't want it longer. On the other side, it is your specialty, so in one sense we are looking at it from two different perspectives.

klewis
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by klewis » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:19 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:09 pm
to klewis,
I mean no harm but you challenged me about the original version of Revelation was strictly Jewish (as written by a non-Christian Jew), and then added on later by Christians.
Cordially, Bernard
To understand the answer to this question you need to understand how Hebrew Poetry works, and its purpose. I have provided in my book an example of Hebrew Poetry https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lN8jRu ... sp=sharing (see also https://www.sbl-site.org/publications/a ... icleId=296 ). Please note, the term Complex Parallel is what I use, the real term is Chiasmus or an Inverted Parallel (Google it if you want to learn more or see examples).

The whole and the sum of Revelation is written in parallels. The only sections in Revelation that are not connected with a parallel are the seven Be attitudes and even those have a literary connection with the others. For example, the first three churches and the beast passage (Rev 13) form a Chiasmus with each other https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gGkg-a ... 2Lrt-/view . The power of this Chiasmus is that even the structure of the Chiasmus (Simple) parallel is a Chiasmus. This shows that John wrote via parallels. So if you are writing on how Revelation was written, you need to also lock down these parallels. The reason being is that to form a parallel one must copy content from one passage to another, or add content in both passages. Now imagine Revelation containing hundreds of these parallels.

With this knowledge of parallels, I came up with an idea that when parallels are formed they are perfect parallels. As the writer forms new parallels from one of the sections it will make the original parallel malformed. By knowing how it was malformed, we can create a logical order of how Revelation was constructed. So when a passage is interconnected with four separate passages that are the product of parallel formation you can see how content grew and shifted.

What I have also discovered is that parallel writing is not just limited to a work internal, but the writers used parallel writing as a means of copying the source text. Revelation does this in every text it uses. The order of the texts added into Revelation and the process is outlined in my first chapter https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QLNLgG ... dz-3v/view. The beauty of this process is that it explains how Ezekiel and Revelation follows the same order for many passages but not for all of them. The true value of this approach is that you can see the logical drafts of Revelation, how the content grew and how themes change over time.

So now to the question of why I believe that the first version of Revelation was a Christian text. The first draft was a parallel of Ezekiel and Isaiah in which Ezekiel contained the judgments and Isaiah contain images of individuals that are depicted as Jesus in the book of Revelation. Those connections are maintained throughout the many drafts of Revelation. So, it is not a hard conclusion that the person who wrote Revelation used the process of Hebrew poetry to copy text from the Hebrew scriptures and slightly altered the text to include Jesus. The same way that the Gospels do it to the Hebrew Scriptures and lace the passage with sprinklings of Jesus.

As Dr. Price said, it sounds incredible, but once you see it, it all clicks into place. Unfortunately, to show it, I had to put it into 380 pages of work. In that, 97% of the book of Revelation sources are revealed, the process in which it was constructed, and five logical drafts was recovered.

This question is not an easy one to give in a single line but one that you have to see the whole process to appreciate. It requires a basic knowledge of Hebrew Poetry and understanding of how it is created for the near texts and those outside the work. Once these concepts are grasped and you see hundreds of illustrations then confidence in the process becomes viable.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:04 am

to Klewis,
I am amazed how you twist and invent things to support your agenda and to deny an original strictly Jewish Revelation.

Let's start by Rev 11:8: "...the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Frankly, I don't see what that have to do with Ezekiel 5, interlaced with Zechariah 2, 4.

About the two prophets of Revelation: why do you assume to be Jesus (the son of Jozadak) & Zerubbabel? Why would the twosome stand for Jesus (of Nazareth)? Pure imagination from your part.

"John" used some OT passages for inspiration, or even material, but out of the original context. Never "John" said he quoted passages from the OT as prophecies of what would happen during his time.

And I remember you interpreted the 24 elders in Rev 4:4 as 12 elders & 12 apostles. From where did you get the 12 apostles? I'll tell you, because you think the whole of Revelation was written, from the start, by a Jewish Christian.

Going back to Rev 11:8, where did you see Jerusalem as spiritually Sodom and Egypt (outside Revelation)?

What about the 144,000 virgin Jews from Israelite descent. Do you think they would be Jewish Christians? That the heck of a lot for their number in the 1st century, but (barely) possible if they were just orthodox (non-Christian) Jews.
And they are the firstfruits (the first ones to go to heaven in 14:3-4). Is that what a Christian would write?

And what about the baby of that woman being raptured to heaven soon after his birth? You said that would be Jesus. But Jesus is never said anywhere in the NT and other Christian texts to go to heaven so early. And in these Christian texts, where Mary, the mother, is said to hide in the desert for years?

And what about :
14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man,
  • Note: a "Jewish" Son of Man. This one is an angel as implied by the next verse and as stated in v.19, not Jesus (earthly or heavenly), the Christian "Son of Man" in the gospels (including GJohn) and 1:13. Probably inspired by the "like a son of man" in Daniel7:13. Let's also notice this "Son of Man" resides on a cloud, when the heavenly Jesus is repeatedly placed at the right hand of God in the N.T. (Ro8:24, Col3:1, Hb1:3,8:1,10:12,12:2, 1Pe3:22, Mk14:62,16:19, Mt26:64, Lk22:69, Ac2:33,7:55,56). Furthermore, how could the heavenly Jesus be both at the same time, the "Son of Man" on a cloud and the Lamb on God's throne?
    Obviously this verse could not have been written by a Christian.
And also that:
19:12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
[the no-name Messiah, certainly not Jesus]
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
  • Note: this ruler of the Gentiles (living outside the Kingdom) refers to the grown up child-Messiah of 12:5 and also to the "Son of Man" of 'Daniel' (& possibly the "angelized" one of 14:14).
    However, in the Christian additions, the Lamb (who has become also Jesus) "metamorphoses" considerably, becomes that ruler (and the ultimate warrior (19:13-21), quite a bit out of character for a lamb!) and has names:
    17:14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; ..."
    19:16 "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."
    19:13 "... His name is called The Word of God."
    This superlative warrior was also the male child-Messiah in 12:5, the one snatched to heaven & God after birth "who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter", as in 19:15b "he himself will rule them with an iron scepter". Of course, Jesus does not go to heaven as a child, which proves that could not have been written by a Christian.
    Remark: the Christian additions will also make the Lamb, oddly enough, a "shepherd" (7:17) and a "lion" (5:5-6).
BTW, the siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE did not last 3.5 years, but 4.5 months.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3242
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:26 pm

klewis,
Are you avoiding my arguments about the initial Revelation being strictly a Jewish text, with no Jesus in it?

I want to point some errors and unevidenced extrapolations of yours in your book.

From what you wrote here,https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P0AGZa ... kLYsJ/view
420 years that the second temple was in service: that would bring to 516 - 420= 96 BCE
Traditional rabbinic literature states that the Second Temple stood for 420 years and based on the 2nd-century work Seder Olam Rabbah, placed construction in 350 BCE (3408 AM)".
However, Seder Olam Rabbat wrote about that well after Revelation was completed.
And you equate 1260 days to 1260 years based on Ezekiel 4:6. But next you take 1260 days as just that for the duration of the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE.
BTW, the siege of Jerusalem lasted 4.5 months not 3.5 years.
And how do you surmise the woman taken in the wilderness represents Jerusalem/Israel?

Something else I found from https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rqFg-s ... oLqkf/view:
Where did you see in the one thousand years kingdom of Christ passage in Revelation that Jerusalem will be prosperous? Certainly not in Isaiah 29:1. In Revelation, the saints are in a camp, the beloved city.
And from https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WpWPIk ... sqTHo/view
And why do you interpret the harlot in Rev. 17:5 as Jerusalem instead of Rome (Goddess Roma).

You wrote:
The city where they crucified our Lord (Rev 11:8)
The two prophets (Jesus and Zerubbabel) in Zechariah 4 is depicted as Jesus. They died, 3.5 days they were raised and take to heaven. As a result the kingdom of the world became the kingdom of God (Rev 11:15). Sounds like Jesus to me.
Who died are two unnamed prophets and not Jesus (according to your bias).

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Post Reply