The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

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Stuart
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Stuart » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:48 pm

Ben,

My point is it's pictorial. And that is for the common people. The writers, the scribes, sure they were familiar with Ezekiel and the OT. But the pictorial imagery doesn't come from the Jewish text. And these are primarily visual images. This use of imagery is something Christianity picked up from the Greek and Roman culture. I think the Jewish influence is overplayed here.

Comment on Irenaeus in particular as a witness. His is a hodgepodge of texts from many eras and the content is much more comfortable after Nicene for much of it than before. It is altogether to predictive, from Trinity to Roman Primacy to the use of NT text as historical source for a heresy. None of that appears again until 150 years later if we have the date of the texts correct. I think we don't have the date of that collection right.

That comment about Ezekiel in Irenaeus does not fit. This is because it assumes that already we have bundled collections of four canonical gospels. This is something that certainly had not happened until at least the Muratorian fragment (which is probably also dated too early) in the post-Decian era, which is when texts were destroyed and a list was needed. The first four-Gospel binding evidence we have are mid to late 4th century Gospel collections. Again it seem Irenaeus has commented on a condition 150-200 years after his death, giving explanation for the pictures.

If we don't think Jesus could have predicted the destruction of Jerusalem stone upon stone in 30 AD which happened 2 generations later, why do we give Irenaeus the predictive power of commenting on a four gospel set authors pictorial representation perhaps 10+ generations to come?
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:12 am

Stuart wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:48 pm
Ben,

My point is it's pictorial. And that is for the common people. The writers, the scribes, sure they were familiar with Ezekiel and the OT. But the pictorial imagery doesn't come from the Jewish text. And these are primarily visual images. This use of imagery is something Christianity picked up from the Greek and Roman culture. I think the Jewish influence is overplayed here.

Comment on Irenaeus in particular as a witness. His is a hodgepodge of texts from many eras and the content is much more comfortable after Nicene for much of it than before. It is altogether to predictive, from Trinity to Roman Primacy to the use of NT text as historical source for a heresy. None of that appears again until 150 years later if we have the date of the texts correct. I think we don't have the date of that collection right.

That comment about Ezekiel in Irenaeus does not fit. This is because it assumes that already we have bundled collections of four canonical gospels. This is something that certainly had not happened until at least the Muratorian fragment (which is probably also dated too early) in the post-Decian era, which is when texts were destroyed and a list was needed. The first four-Gospel binding evidence we have are mid to late 4th century Gospel collections. Again it seem Irenaeus has commented on a condition 150-200 years after his death, giving explanation for the pictures.

If we don't think Jesus could have predicted the destruction of Jerusalem stone upon stone in 30 AD which happened 2 generations later, why do we give Irenaeus the predictive power of commenting on a four gospel set authors pictorial representation perhaps 10+ generations to come?
I am not commenting on the timing of the motif. I am commenting on the exact fit of the evangelical symbols with the living creatures of Ezekiel and Revelation: calf/bull, human, lion, eagle. You write that "the pictorial imagery does not come from the Jewish text." Do you mean that the idea of using such pictorial imagery does not come from the Jewish text? Because I could at least understand that: the authors may have been inspired by the fixed zodiacal signs to identify the four gospels with four animals representing the four cardinal points, and they turned to the Jewish and Christian scriptures for the exact set of creatures to use. But it has been sounding like you mean that the imagery itself (the particular set of four creatures) does not come from Ezekiel or Revelation, a suggestion which is plainly and trivially incorrect (no matter when the texts were penned).
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MrMacSon
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:34 am

Stuart wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:48 pm
... the Muratorian fragment (which is probably also dated too early) ...
Jonathan J. Armstrong claims the Muratorian Fragment coulD have been written in the mid-late 3rd century by Victorinus of Pettau -

Armstrong, JJ (2008) 'Victorinus of Pettau as the Author of the Canon Muratori' Vigiliae Christianae Vol. 62, No. 1; pp. 1-34

Albert Sundberg and Geoffrey Hahneman have proposed a fourth century date for the original of the fragment, emphasizing comparisons with eastern fourth century canon lists -

Sundberg, Albert C., Jr. (1973) "Canon Muratori: A Fourth Century List." Harvard Theological Review 66 (1973): 1-41.

Hahneman, Geoffrey Mark (1992). The Muratorian Fragment and the Development of the Canon. Oxford: Clarendon.


Most still date it to the late 2nd century, though e.g. -

C.E. Hill (1995) “The Debate Over the Muratorian Fragment & the Development of the Canon” [pdf] Westminster Theological Jour. 57(2): 437-452.

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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Stuart » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:33 pm

McMacSon,

"could have been written" is the operative phrase - It could also have been later (e.g., post-Diocletian). So that is the early terminus. And even so, that dating still puts it shortly after the Decian persecution of 250 CE. Typically 254 is a date thrown out for it. That was the early date I mentioned in my post and contradicts this information not in the least, as I acknowledge the early dating as shortly after Decius.

Irenaeus however is still dead.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:44 pm

Something about Your commentary on the two passages below reminded of something I read in R. H. Charles' Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Revelation of St. John (2 vols, 1920).
nightshadetwine wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:21 pm
Revelation 4:
...and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the [c]center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle.
In the Egyptian Book of the Dead when the sun god enters the netherworld he brings light("Illumines") and raises the dead there. The dead are then judged by Osiris who sits on a throne that has water flowing under it. In the photo below you'll notice under the throne is blue with wavy lines which indicates water. You'll notice coming out of the water is a lotus flower(represents resurrection) with four beings standing on the flower. These four beings are known as the sons of Horus. Three of them were often portrayed as having the heads of animals while one of them had the head of a man. One has the head of an Eagle, one the head of a baboon(which resembles a lion in the picture), and the other the head of a Jackal(which resembles a calf in the picture). When the dead first enter the netherworld they are given food from the Tree of Life by the Goddess Nut.
and
nightshadetwine wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:55 pm
Revelation 21:
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel... He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits [2] thick, [3] by man's measurement, which the angel was using. The wall was made of jasper...
In this chapter of Revelation we are given measurements of the Heavenly Jerusalem and told that the walls are made of Jasper. Jasper is usually red due to iron inclusions. In the Book Of the Dead we are given measurements of the Field of Reeds which is the heavenly version of the lands surrounding the Nile where the deceased go after judgement. The Field of Reeds had walls made of Iron.
I rented a bucket loader and went into the ruins of my library (one bookcase had collapsed about 2-3 years ago and I never repaired and reorganized it), and dug out the two volumes that make up this still valuable set of volumes on Revelation.

While it is now supposed to be superseded by the volumes of the World Biblcial Commentary written by David E. Aune (Revelation 1-5 WBC 52A 1997, Revelation 6-16. WBC 52B 1998, and Revelation 17-22 WBC 52C 1998), Charles had quite a lot to say about the gemstones and the gold so pure they were like glass, and how they relate to astrology and Ezekiel 10. Unfortunately nothing seems to have been said about any connections to Egyptian mythical imagery, not that there wasn't any but more likely because he thinks he can explain the imagery in Revelation better with Hebrew and Greek sources.

I scanned the relevant pages and created a PDF, which is attached below. I highly recommend that anyone who has any interest in these subjects read it. While the PDF was scanned using OCR, I can not guarantee the way it read Greek and Hebrew, so beware if you choose to copy & paste.

Now, if you will indulge me, for context I have also created MS Word & Excel files of Rev 4:1-6a and 21:10-21:

REV 4.1-6a (RSV)
REV 4.1-6a (GNT as edited by Bibleworks ver. 8)
1 After this I looked, and lo, in heaven an open door! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up hither, and I will show you what must take place after this." 1 Μετὰ ταῦτα εἶδον, καὶ ἰδοὺ θύρα ἠνεῳγμένη ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ ἡ φωνὴ ἡ πρώτη ἣν ἤκουσα ὡς σάλπιγγος λαλούσης μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ λέγων· ἀνάβα ὧδε, καὶ δείξω σοι ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα.
2 At once I was in the Spirit, and lo, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne! 2 Εὐθέως ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι, καὶ ἰδοὺ θρόνος ἔκειτο ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν θρόνον καθήμενος,
3 And he who sat there appeared like jasper and carnelian, and round the throne was a rainbow that looked like an emerald. 3 καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ὅμοιος ὁράσει λίθῳ ἰάσπιδι καὶ σαρδίῳ, καὶ ἶρις κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου ὅμοιος ὁράσει σμαραγδίνῳ.
4 Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads. 4 Καὶ κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρας πρεσβυτέρους καθημένους περιβεβλημένους ἐν ἱματίοις λευκοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς κεφαλὰς αὐτῶν στεφάνους χρυσοῦς.
5 From the throne issue flashes of lightning, and voices and peals of thunder, and before the throne burn seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God; 5 Καὶ ἐκ τοῦ θρόνου ἐκπορεύονται ἀστραπαὶ καὶ φωναὶ καὶ βρονταί, καὶ ἑπτὰ λαμπάδες πυρὸς καιόμεναι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου, ἅ εἰσιν τὰ ἑπτὰ πνεύματα τοῦ θεοῦ,
6 and before the throne there is as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. 6 καὶ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου ὡς θάλασσα ὑαλίνη ὁμοία κρυστάλλῳ.
REV 21.10-21 (RSV) REV 21.10-21 (GNT as edited by Bibleworks ver. 8)
10 And in the Spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 10 καὶ ἀπήνεγκέν με ἐν πνεύματι ἐπὶ ὄρος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν, καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν Ἰερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ
11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 11 ἔχουσαν τὴν δόξαν τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ φωστὴρ αὐτῆς ὅμοιος λίθῳ τιμιωτάτῳ ὡς λίθῳ ἰάσπιδι κρυσταλλίζοντι.
12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed; 12 ἔχουσα τεῖχος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν, ἔχουσα πυλῶνας δώδεκα καὶ ἐπὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν ἀγγέλους δώδεκα καὶ ὀνόματα ἐπιγεγραμμένα, ἅ ἐστιν [τὰ ὀνόματα] τῶν δώδεκα φυλῶν υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ·
13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 13 ἀπὸ ἀνατολῆς πυλῶνες τρεῖς καὶ ἀπὸ βορρᾶ πυλῶνες τρεῖς καὶ ἀπὸ νότου πυλῶνες τρεῖς καὶ ἀπὸ δυσμῶν πυλῶνες τρεῖς.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 14 καὶ τὸ τεῖχος τῆς πόλεως ἔχων θεμελίους δώδεκα καὶ ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν δώδεκα ὀνόματα τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῦ ἀρνίου.
15 And he who talked to me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 15 Καὶ ὁ λαλῶν μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ εἶχεν μέτρον κάλαμον χρυσοῦν, ἵνα μετρήσῃ τὴν πόλιν καὶ τοὺς πυλῶνας αὐτῆς καὶ τὸ τεῖχος αὐτῆς.
16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its breadth; and he measured the city with his rod, twelve thousand stadia; its length and breadth and height are equal. 16 καὶ ἡ πόλις τετράγωνος κεῖται καὶ τὸ μῆκος αὐτῆς ὅσον [καὶ] τὸ πλάτος. καὶ ἐμέτρησεν τὴν πόλιν τῷ καλάμῳ ἐπὶ σταδίων δώδεκα χιλιάδων, τὸ μῆκος καὶ τὸ πλάτος καὶ τὸ ὕψος αὐτῆς ἴσα ἐστίν.
17 He also measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits by a man's measure, that is, an angel's. 17 καὶ ἐμέτρησεν τὸ τεῖχος αὐτῆς ἑκατὸν τεσσεράκοντα τεσσάρων πηχῶν μέτρον ἀνθρώπου, ὅ ἐστιν ἀγγέλου.
18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass. 18 καὶ ἡ ἐνδώμησις τοῦ τείχους αὐτῆς ἴασπις καὶ ἡ πόλις χρυσίον καθαρὸν ὅμοιον ὑάλῳ καθαρῷ.
19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every jewel; the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 19 οἱ θεμέλιοι τοῦ τείχους τῆς πόλεως παντὶ λίθῳ τιμίῳ κεκοσμημένοι· ὁ θεμέλιος ὁ πρῶτος ἴασπις, ὁ δεύτερος σάπφιρος, ὁ τρίτος χαλκηδών, ὁ τέταρτος σμάραγδος,
20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 20 ὁ πέμπτος σαρδόνυξ, ὁ ἕκτος σάρδιον, ὁ ἕβδομος χρυσόλιθος, ὁ ὄγδοος βήρυλλος, ὁ ἔνατος τοπάζιον, ὁ δέκατος χρυσόπρασος, ὁ ἑνδέκατος ὑάκινθος, ὁ δωδέκατος ἀμέθυστος,
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass. 21 καὶ οἱ δώδεκα πυλῶνες δώδεκα μαργαρῖται, ἀνὰ εἷς ἕκαστος τῶν πυλώνων ἦν ἐξ ἑνὸς μαργαρίτου. καὶ ἡ πλατεῖα τῆς πόλεως χρυσίον καθαρὸν ὡς ὕαλος διαυγής.

Enjoy.

DCH

PS: I will follow with a post with a table that shows where this gem & pure gold imagery for the Heavenly Jerusalem probably really came from. It may or not be what you expect.
Last edited by DCHindley on Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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MrMacSon
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:56 pm

Stuart wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:33 pm
McMacSon,

"could have been written" is the operative phrase ... Typically 254 is a date thrown out for it. That was the early date I mentioned in my post and contradicts this information not in the least, as I acknowledge the early dating as shortly after Decius.
Sure. I was just adding specific articles that address a later-than-commonly-proposed date for the Muratorian Fragment.


I'm not sure what you mean by -
Stuart wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:33 pm
Irenaeus however is still dead.

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 pm

DCHindley wrote:PS: I will follow with a post with a table that shows where this gem & pure gold imagery for the Heavenly Jerusalem probably really came from. It may or not be what you expect.
What I mean here is that this Gem imagery and talk of Gold "as clear as glass," seems in actuality to stem from Plato's Phaedo 109a-111c:

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 1 translated by Harold North Fowler; Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1966. (From Perseus.com)
Plato. Platonis Opera, ed. John Burnet. Oxford University Press. 1903. (From Perseus.com)
[109a] … “Secondly,” said he, “I believe that the earth is very large and that we who dwell between the pillars of Hercules [109b] and the river Phasis live in a small part of it about the sea, like ants or frogs about a pond, and that many other people live in many other such regions. [109a] ... ἔτι τοίνυν, ἔφη, πάμμεγά τι εἶναι αὐτό, καὶ ἡμᾶς οἰκεῖν [109β] τοὺς μέχρι Ἡρακλείων στηλῶν ἀπὸ Φάσιδος ἐν σμικρῷ τινι μορίῳ, ὥσπερ περὶ τέλμα μύρμηκας ἢ βατράχους περὶ τὴν θάλατταν οἰκοῦντας, καὶ ἄλλους ἄλλοθι πολλοὺς ἐν πολλοῖσι τοιούτοις τόποις οἰκεῖν.
For I believe there are in all directions on the earth many hollows of very various forms and sizes, into which the water and mist and air have run together; εἶναι γὰρ πανταχῇ περὶ τὴν γῆν πολλὰ κοῖλα καὶ παντοδαπὰ καὶ τὰς ἰδέας καὶ τὰ μεγέθη, εἰς ἃ συνερρυηκέναι τό τε ὕδωρ καὶ τὴν ὁμίχλην καὶ τὸν ἀέρα:
but the earth itself is pure and is situated in the pure heaven in which the stars are, the heaven which [109c] those who discourse about such matters call the ether; αὐτὴν δὲ τὴν γῆν καθαρὰν ἐν καθαρῷ κεῖσθαι τῷ οὐρανῷ ἐν ᾧπέρ ἐστι τὰ ἄστρα, ὃν δὴ αἰθέρα ὀνομάζειν [109ξ] τοὺς πολλοὺς τῶν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα εἰωθότων λέγειν:
the water, mist and air are the sediment of this and flow together into the hollows of the earth. οὗ δὴ ὑποστάθμην ταῦτα εἶναι καὶ συρρεῖν ἀεὶ εἰς τὰ κοῖλα τῆς γῆς.
Now we do not perceive that we live in the hollows, but think we live on the upper surface of the earth, just as if someone who lives in the depth of the ocean should think he lived on the surface of the sea, and, seeing the sun and the stars through the water, should think the sea was the sky, and should, by reason of sluggishness or [109d] feebleness, never have reached the surface of the sea, and should never have seen, by rising and lifting his head out of the sea into our upper world, and should never have heard from anyone who had seen, how much purer and fairer it is than the world he lived in. ἡμᾶς οὖν οἰκοῦντας ἐν τοῖς κοίλοις αὐτῆς λεληθέναι καὶ οἴεσθαι ἄνω ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς οἰκεῖν, ὥσπερ ἂν εἴ τις ἐν μέσῳ τῷ πυθμένι τοῦ πελάγους οἰκῶν οἴοιτό τε ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάττης οἰκεῖν καὶ διὰ τοῦ ὕδατος ὁρῶν τὸν ἥλιον καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἄστρα τὴν θάλατταν ἡγοῖτο οὐρανὸν εἶναι, διὰ δὲ [109δ] βραδυτῆτά τε καὶ ἀσθένειαν μηδεπώποτε ἐπὶ τὰ ἄκρα τῆς θαλάττης ἀφιγμένος μηδὲ ἑωρακὼς εἴη, ἐκδὺς καὶ ἀνακύψας ἐκ τῆς θαλάττης εἰς τὸν ἐνθάδε τόπον, ὅσῳ καθαρώτερος καὶ καλλίων τυγχάνει ὢν τοῦ παρὰ σφίσι, μηδὲ ἄλλου ἀκηκοὼς εἴη τοῦ ἑωρακότος. ταὐτὸν δὴ τοῦτο καὶ ἡμᾶς πεπονθέναι:
I believe this is just the case with us; for we dwell in a hollow of the earth and think we dwell on its upper surface; and the air we call the heaven, and think that is the heaven in which the stars move. οἰκοῦντας γὰρ ἔν τινι κοίλῳ τῆς γῆς οἴεσθαι ἐπάνω αὐτῆς οἰκεῖν, καὶ τὸν ἀέρα οὐρανὸν καλεῖν, ὡς διὰ τούτου οὐρανοῦ ὄντος τὰ ἄστρα χωροῦντα:
But the fact is the same, [109e] that by reason of feebleness and sluggishness, we are unable to attain to the upper surface of the air; τὸ δὲ εἶναι ταὐτόν, [109ε] ὑπ᾽ ἀσθενείας καὶ βραδυτῆτος οὐχ οἵους τε εἶναι ἡμᾶς διεξελθεῖν ἐπ᾽ ἔσχατον τὸν ἀέρα:
for if anyone should come to the top of the air or should get wings and fly up, he could lift his head above it and see, as fishes lift their heads out of the water and see the things in our world, so he would see things in that upper world; ἐπεί, εἴ τις αὐτοῦ ἐπ᾽ ἄκρα ἔλθοι ἢ πτηνὸς γενόμενος ἀνάπτοιτο, κατιδεῖν <ἂν> ἀνακύψαντα, ὥσπερ ἐνθάδε οἱ ἐκ τῆς θαλάττης ἰχθύες ἀνακύπτοντες ὁρῶσι τὰ ἐνθάδε, οὕτως ἄν τινα καὶ τὰ ἐκεῖ κατιδεῖν,
and, if his nature were strong enough to bear the sight, he would recognize that that is the real heaven [110a] and the real light and the real earth. καὶ εἰ ἡ φύσις ἱκανὴ εἴη ἀνασχέσθαι θεωροῦσα, γνῶναι ἂν ὅτι ἐκεῖνός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθῶς οὐρανὸς καὶ τὸ ἀληθινὸν φῶς [110α] καὶ ἡ ὡς ἀληθῶς γῆ.
For this earth of ours, and the stones and the whole region where we live, are injured and corroded, as in the sea things are injured by the brine, and nothing of any account grows in the sea, and there is, one might say, nothing perfect there, but caverns and sand and endless mud and mire, where there is earth also, and there is nothing at all worthy to be compared with the beautiful things of our world. ἥδε μὲν γὰρ ἡ γῆ καὶ οἱ λίθοι καὶ ἅπας ὁ τόπος ὁ ἐνθάδε διεφθαρμένα ἐστὶν καὶ καταβεβρωμένα, ὥσπερ τὰ ἐν τῇ θαλάττῃ ὑπὸ τῆς ἅλμης, καὶ οὔτε φύεται ἄξιον λόγου οὐδὲν ἐν τῇ θαλάττῃ, οὔτε τέλειον ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδέν ἐστι, σήραγγες δὲ καὶ ἄμμος καὶ πηλὸς ἀμήχανος καὶ βόρβοροί εἰσιν, ὅπου ἂν καὶ [ἡ] γῆ ᾖ, καὶ πρὸς τὰ παρ᾽ ἡμῖν κάλλη κρίνεσθαι οὐδ᾽ ὁπωστιοῦν ἄξια.
But the things in that world above would be seen to be even more superior to those in this world of ours. ἐκεῖνα δὲ αὖ τῶν παρ᾽ ἡμῖν πολὺ ἂν ἔτι πλέον φανείη διαφέρειν:
[110b] If I may tell a story, Simmias, about the things on the earth that is below the heaven, and what they are like, it is well worth hearing.” [110β] εἰ γὰρ δὴ καὶ μῦθον λέγειν καλόν, ἄξιον ἀκοῦσαι, ὦ Σιμμία, οἷα τυγχάνει τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ὑπὸ τῷ οὐρανῷ ὄντα.
“By all means, Socrates,” said Simmias; “we should be glad to hear this story.” ἀλλὰ μήν, ἔφη ὁ Σιμμίας, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἡμεῖς γε τούτου τοῦ μύθου ἡδέως ἂν ἀκούσαιμεν.
“Well then, my friend,” said he, “to begin with, the earth when seen from above is said to look like those balls that are covered with twelve pieces of leather; it is divided into patches of various colors, of which the colors which we see here may be regarded as samples, such as painters use. λέγεται τοίνυν, ἔφη, ὦ ἑταῖρε, πρῶτον μὲν εἶναι τοιαύτη ἡ γῆ αὐτὴ ἰδεῖν, εἴ τις ἄνωθεν θεῷτο, ὥσπερ αἱ δωδεκάσκυτοι σφαῖραι, ποικίλη, χρώμασιν διειλημμένη, ὧν καὶ τὰ ἐνθάδε εἶναι χρώματα ὥσπερ δείγματα, οἷς δὴ οἱ γραφῆς [110ξ] καταχρῶνται.
[110c] But there the whole earth is of such colors, and they are much brighter and purer than ours; ἐκεῖ δὲ πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἐκ τοιούτων εἶναι, καὶ πολὺ ἔτι ἐκ λαμπροτέρων καὶ καθαρωτέρων ἢ τούτων:
for one part is purple of wonderful beauty, and one is golden, and one is white, whiter than chalk or snow, and the earth is made up of the other colors likewise, and they are more in number and more beautiful than those which we see here. τὴν μὲν γὰρ ἁλουργῆ εἶναι [καὶ] θαυμαστὴν τὸ κάλλος, τὴν δὲ χρυσοειδῆ, τὴν δὲ ὅση λευκὴ γύψου ἢ χιόνος λευκοτέραν, καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἄλλων χρωμάτων συγκειμένην ὡσαύτως, καὶ ἔτι πλειόνων καὶ καλλιόνων ἢ ὅσα ἡμεῖς ἑωράκαμεν.
For those very hollows of the earth which are full of water and air, present an appearance [110d] of color as they glisten amid the variety of the other colors, so that the whole produces one continuous effect of variety. καὶ γὰρ αὐτὰ ταῦτα τὰ κοῖλα αὐτῆς, ὕδατός τε καὶ ἀέρος ἔκπλεα [110δ] ὄντα, χρώματός τι εἶδος παρέχεσθαι στίλβοντα ἐν τῇ τῶν ἄλλων χρωμάτων ποικιλίᾳ, ὥστε ἕν τι αὐτῆς εἶδος συνεχὲς ποικίλον φαντάζεσθαι.
And in this fair earth the things that grow, the trees, and flowers and fruits, are correspondingly beautiful; ἐν δὲ ταύτῃ οὔσῃ τοιαύτῃ ἀνὰ λόγον τὰ φυόμενα φύεσθαι, δένδρα τε καὶ ἄνθη καὶ τοὺς καρπούς:
and so too the mountains and the stones are smoother, and more transparent and more lovely in color than ours. καὶ αὖ τὰ ὄρη ὡσαύτως καὶ τοὺς λίθους ἔχειν ἀνὰ τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον τήν τε λειότητα καὶ τὴν διαφάνειαν καὶ τὰ χρώματα καλλίω:
In fact, our highly prized stones, sards and [110e] jaspers, and emeralds, and other gems, are fragments of those there, but there everything is like these or still more beautiful. ὧν καὶ τὰ ἐνθάδε λιθίδια εἶναι ταῦτα τὰ ἀγαπώμενα μόρια, σάρδιά τε καὶ ἰάσπιδας καὶ σμαράγδους [110ε] καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα:
And the reason of this is that there the stones are pure, and not corroded or defiled, as ours are, with filth and brine by the vapors and liquids which flow together here and which cause ugliness and disease in earth and stones and animals and plants. ἐκεῖ δὲ οὐδὲν ὅτι οὐ τοιοῦτον εἶναι καὶ ἔτι τούτων καλλίω. τὸ δ᾽ αἴτιον τούτου εἶναι ὅτι ἐκεῖνοι οἱ λίθοι εἰσὶ καθαροὶ καὶ οὐ κατεδηδεσμένοι οὐδὲ διεφθαρμένοι ὥσπερ οἱ ἐνθάδε ὑπὸ σηπεδόνος καὶ ἅλμης ὑπὸ τῶν δεῦρο συνερρυηκότων, ἃ καὶ λίθοις καὶ γῇ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ζῴοις τε καὶ φυτοῖς αἴσχη τε καὶ νόσους παρέχει.
And the earth there is adorned with all the jewels and also with gold and [111a] silver and everything of the sort. τὴν δὲ γῆν αὐτὴν κεκοσμῆσθαι τούτοις τε ἅπασι καὶ ἔτι χρυσῷ τε καὶ ἀργύρῳ καὶ [111α] τοῖς ἄλλοις αὖ τοῖς τοιούτοις.
For there they are in plain sight, abundant and large and in many places, so that the earth is a sight to make those blessed who look upon it. ἐκφανῆ γὰρ αὐτὰ πεφυκέναι, ὄντα πολλὰ πλήθει καὶ μεγάλα καὶ πανταχοῦ τῆς γῆς, ὥστε αὐτὴν ἰδεῖν εἶναι θέαμα εὐδαιμόνων θεατῶν.
And there are many animals upon it, and men also, some dwelling inland, others on the coasts of the air, as we dwell about the sea, and others on islands, which the air flows around, near the mainland; and in short, what water and the sea are [111b] in our lives, air is in theirs, and what the air is to us, ether is to them. ζῷα δ᾽ ἐπ᾽ αὐτῇ εἶναι ἄλλα τε πολλὰ καὶ ἀνθρώπους, τοὺς μὲν ἐν μεσογαίᾳ οἰκοῦντας, τοὺς δὲ περὶ τὸν ἀέρα ὥσπερ ἡμεῖς περὶ τὴν θάλατταν, τοὺς δ᾽ ἐν νήσοις ἃς περιρρεῖν τὸν ἀέρα πρὸς τῇ ἠπείρῳ οὔσας: καὶ ἑνὶ λόγῳ, ὅπερ ἡμῖν τὸ ὕδωρ τε καὶ ἡ θάλαττά ἐστι πρὸς τὴν ἡμετέραν χρείαν, τοῦτο ἐκεῖ [111β] τὸν ἀέρα, ὃ δὲ ἡμῖν ἀήρ, ἐκείνοις τὸν αἰθέρα.
And the seasons are so tempered that people there have no diseases and live much longer than we, and in sight and hearing and wisdom and all such things are as much superior to us as air is purer than water or the ether than air. τὰς δὲ ὥρας αὐτοῖς κρᾶσιν ἔχειν τοιαύτην ὥστε ἐκείνους ἀνόσους εἶναι καὶ χρόνον τε ζῆν πολὺ πλείω τῶν ἐνθάδε, καὶ ὄψει καὶ ἀκοῇ καὶ φρονήσει καὶ πᾶσι τοῖς τοιούτοις ἡμῶν ἀφεστάναι τῇ αὐτῇ ἀποστάσει ᾗπερ ἀήρ τε ὕδατος ἀφέστηκεν καὶ αἰθὴρ ἀέρος πρὸς καθαρότητα.
And they have sacred groves and temples of the gods, in which the gods really dwell, and they have intercourse with the gods by speech and prophecies and visions, [111c] and they see the sun and moon and stars as they really are, and in all other ways their blessedness is in accord with this. καὶ δὴ καὶ θεῶν ἄλση τε καὶ ἱερὰ αὐτοῖς εἶναι, ἐν οἷς τῷ ὄντι οἰκητὰς θεοὺς εἶναι, καὶ φήμας τε καὶ μαντείας καὶ αἰσθήσεις τῶν θεῶν καὶ τοιαύτας συνουσίας [111ξ] γίγνεσθαι αὐτοῖς πρὸς αὐτούς: καὶ τόν γε ἥλιον καὶ σελήνην καὶ ἄστρα ὁρᾶσθαι ὑπ᾽ αὐτῶν οἷα τυγχάνει ὄντα, καὶ τὴν ἄλλην εὐδαιμονίαν τούτων ἀκόλουθον εἶναι.
Such then is the nature of the earth as a whole, and of the things around it. καὶ ὅλην μὲν δὴ τὴν γῆν οὕτω πεφυκέναι καὶ τὰ περὶ τὴν γῆν:

So, these parts of the book of Revelation are actually derived (probably indirectly) from Plato!

Who knew?

DCH

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:05 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 pm
So, these parts of the book of Revelation are actually derived (probably indirectly) from Plato!
Well, I doubt Russell Gmirkin would be shocked.
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:06 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 pm
What I mean here is that this Gem imagery and talk of Gold "as clear as glass," seems in actuality to stem from Plato's Phaedo 109a-111c:

So, these parts of the book of Revelation are actually derived (probably indirectly) from Plato!

Who knew?

DCH
Thanks for sharing those quotes and the PDF! That is pretty similar. I think Christianity is heavily influenced by Greek and Egyptian religion.

Here's some more parallels between the book of Revelation and the Egyptian judgement and afterlife:
Revelation 7:
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’
Revelation 7 mentions those in the white robes before the throne of god. Notice in the pictures of the deceased in front of the throne of Osiris they are wearing white robes. It also says that the lamb on the throne will be their shepherd. Osiris sitting on the throne holds the shepherd's crook.
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Image
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From "Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God" By Bojana Mojsov:
All justified souls were admitted to the community of gods and spirits, modeled after the pattern of earthly society. The giving of the bread and beer that issue from Osiris was not unlike the Christian bread and wine offered at the mass of the Eucharist. Osiris, the Good Being, gave sustenance to the righteous and pointed the way to immortality with the shepherd's crook.
From "Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt" by Margaret R. Bunson:
Eternity itself was not some vague concept. The Egyptians, pragmatic and determined to have all things explained in concrete terms, believed that they would dwell in paradise in areas graced by lakes and gardens. There they would eat the "cakes of Osiris" and float on the Lake of Flowers. The eternal kingdoms varied according to era and cultic belief, but all were located beside flowing water and blessed with breezes, an attribute deemed necessary for comfort. The Garden of A'aru was one such oasis of eternal bliss. Another was Ma'ati, an eternal land where the deceased buried a flame of fire and a scepter of crystal - rituals whose meanings are lost. The goddess Ma'at, the personification of cosmic order, justice, goodness, and faith was the protector of the deceased in this enchanted realm, called Hehtt in some eras. Only the pure of heart, the uabt, could see Ma'at (86-87).

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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:10 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:05 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 pm
So, these parts of the book of Revelation are actually derived (probably indirectly) from Plato!
Well, I doubt Russell Gmirkin would be shocked.
Yeah, I thought of Russell too. Secretly, I've kinda wondered whether he was over the top with the idea that Judeans re-invented themselves and invented a national history and other founding documents based on Plato in late Persian or early Greek times.

That's a ways before the time the book of Revelation was supposedly written (late 1st century CE), so I'm not so sure that anything having to do with the foundation of then-modern Judaism was directly influencing the writer of Revelation. However, Platonism remained keenly studied by intellectuals in the upper classes.

It just seems weird to see Platonism play out in study of Judaism. We're not even talking about some "way-outs" like Judeans of the Gnostic persuasion, but Judaism as it was being practiced by the majority of their people. Revelation is full of clues that it had used Judean sources at very least. That doesn't mean the writer was a Judean him/herself, but kinda points in that direction.

I will say, though, that proto-Christianity surely co-developed with Judean Gnosticism somewhere between mid 1st century CE and mid 2nd century CE. They may simply be different faces of the same coin.

DCH

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