The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:09 am

Since we're on the subject, observe the throne of St. Mark, made famous (or infamouse depending on your persuation) by Huller:

Image

Notice the wavy pattern on the base of the throne. It is clearly the same as that which was used to indicate water in Egyptian pictitorial representation.

That this is on the base of the throne is significant in comparing it to the throne of Osiris. The water that Osiris sits over is the waters of Nun, the primordial sea from which everything emerges from and is surrounded by. These waters also had restoring properties, and it was believed that the Nile was itself connected to the Nun.

Further more, Egyptian art is not abstract. It is meant to fully replicate reality in as possible a way in two and three dimensions in relation to the observer. Since it is not possible to depict the waters of Nun visually underneath the throne of St. Mark, it is necessary to depict it on the base, thus conveying to the observer that the waters of Nun is indeed beneath the throne. (As a tangant, that's also why the so-called "ufo of Abydos" is completely ridiculous. Helicopters would not be depicted in that way in Egyptian art. The propellers would be depicted as an X over the supposed helicopter, not horizontaly).

Now I have my own ideas as to who this throne was originally made for (to disagree with Huller, I don't believe it was Agrippa II), but that it was incorporated into Christiandom and depicts clear pagan influence... well, what more can we expect?

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am

nightshadetwine wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:06 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 pm
What I mean here is that this Gem imagery and talk of Gold "as clear as glass," seems in actuality to stem from Plato's Phaedo 109a-111c:

So, these parts of the book of Revelation are actually derived (probably indirectly) from Plato!

Who knew?
Thanks for sharing those quotes and the PDF! That is pretty similar. I think Christianity is heavily influenced by Greek and Egyptian religion.
If you accept the concept of syncretism (i.e., cultures continuously borrow & integrate ideas and imagery from other cultures they come into contact with into their own evolving culture) then I would not be surprised to see some.

Years ago I became aware that late 19th century scholarship had identified Hellenic ideas in the Enochic Book of Watchers, which seems about as "Judean" as Judean can be, but that turned out to be a kind of a mirage. The BoW actually seems to represent a POV that is southern Syrian (Mt. Hermon, etc), and not especially Mosaic, and I am inclining to the view that it was created in Iturean circles, some of whom had been forced by the Hasmoneans to convert to Judaism to continue to live in Galilee which they had annexed. My thought was that they also observed circumcision, maybe had their own Abraham traditions, which the Hasmoneans sought to "perfect" by adoption of the law of Moses as well. Thus, the BoW actually represents a non Judaic POV (although I'll allow some Israelite traditions from the old Northern Kingdom were part of Iturean culture).

The Idumeans went through a similar assimilation process, having circumcision traditions already in place, although probably not with an Abraham tradition as they had been pagans before being forced to adopt mosaic law. However, in the case of Antipater and Herod the Great, their devotion to their adopted Judaic ways seemed to have been whole-hearted. The assistance the Idumeans offered to the Judean rebels in Jerusalem in the war of 66 CE suggests that many Idumeans were whole hearted "Judeans." The Judean aristocracy may not have agreed, as they rebuffed the Idumean offer gruffly and insultingly, to their regret.

Since you seem to think that Jesus was probably a historic person around whom foreign ideas became associated, as I also do, perhaps you share my interest in how these originally foreign ideas became imported into the Judean culture of Jesus' followers. My solution is to look at it as a more or less chemical process. Discreet Elements change chemical form due to being placed into contact with one another and subjected to a combination of heat and pressure. Sometimes a catalyst must also be introduced to initiate the reaction.

I think that all the elements were in place in a human Jesus' time. Jesus' unexpected death was a catalyst, causing his followers, including gentile converts, to believe he would be raised from the dead to inaugurate the kingdom of God on earth. The heat/pressure of the Judean war was what caused these modified ideas, at least among the gentile converts, to reform as a kind of mystery religion. The gentile converts to his movement had probably been exposed to such cults before they converted to Judaism, and allowed some of that practice and belief to re-emerge in the compound being formed.

IMHO, Paul was not in any way involved in this development. To me, he had led an independent movement that accepted gentiles as "children of Abraham" if they believed that God would one day deliver on his promise to deliver a bountiful land of milk & honey for his children to inherit. They had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus movement. The mystery religious elements were introduced into his existing writings by the gentile "christians" who had developed it in a process of adoption and adaptation. Unfortunately, Pauls' theology of gentile justification before god in the age to come, and the Divine Redeemer myth developed by Jesus' gentile convert followers, mix like oil and water making the Paulines as they stand now a mess to interpret.

DCH

nightshadetwine
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:00 pm

Revelation 20:2:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.…
From the book "The Sungod's Journey through the Netherworld: Reading the Ancient Egyptian Amduat":
...there is a bottomless, murky depth into which the enemies of the sun god are cast.
From "The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife" By Erik Hornung:
In their nets, which they hold above them, magical power is contained, as though in a force field, and it renders Apophis defenseless. The Old One ties fetters around his body...Apophis is bound, dismembered, and rendered harmless. The rope with which he and his assistants are bound is held by a giant fist emerging from the depths.
Revelation 20:
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.…
From "The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife" By Erik Hornung:
In the lower register of the tenth hour of the night is the rectangle of water containing those who have drowned...Those shown in various positions drifting in the water like Osiris, are saved from decay and decomposition by Horus, who leads them to a blessed posthumous existence even though they have not been accorded a proper burial.
Last edited by nightshadetwine on Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nightshadetwine
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:59 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am
Years ago I became aware that late 19th century scholarship had identified Hellenic ideas in the Enochic Book of Watchers, which seems about as "Judean" as Judean can be, but that turned out to be a kind of a mirage. The BoW actually seems to represent a POV that is southern Syrian (Mt. Hermon, etc), and not especially Mosaic, and I am inclining to the view that it was created in Iturean circles, some of whom had been forced by the Hasmoneans to convert to Judaism to continue to live in Galilee which they had annexed. My thought was that they also observed circumcision, maybe had their own Abraham traditions, which the Hasmoneans sought to "perfect" by adoption of the law of Moses as well. Thus, the BoW actually represents a non Judaic POV (although I'll allow some Israelite traditions from the old Northern Kingdom were part of Iturean culture).
The Watchers may be influenced by the Greek Titans. The binding of the Titans also reminds me of the binding of the dragon/serpent in Revelation and the binding of Apophis in the Egyptian books of the Netherworld.

From Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East By Jan Bremmer:
In the twentieth century, the binding of the fallen angels has regularly reminded scholars of the myth of the Titans. And indeed, the Jewish translators of the Septuagint, erudite as they were, could hardly have failed to note the vague parallels between the Titans and the gigantes they introduced into Genesis 6.4. The interpretation even gains in probability, if we remember that several scholars have also noted parallels between Prometheus' instruction of primitive men in all kinds of arts in the Prometheus Victus (454-505) and the instruction of men in technical skills and magic by the Watchers in 1 Enoch 6-7. Now the combination of the myths of Prometheus and the struggle of the Titans against Zeus in the same passage may not be accidental. The figure of an inventive Prometheus in the pseudo-Aeschylean Prometheus Vinctus was probaby modelled on Ea in Atrahasis through the mediation of the already mentioned Titanomachy. Knowledge by the authors of 1 Enoch and Jubilees, or their source, of the Greek myth of the Titans via the Titanomachy, directly or indirectly, can therefore hardly be doubted...The myth of the Titans has appeared to be an extremely interesting example of the cultural contacts in the Mediterranean. From the Hurrian and the Hittites it migrated to the Greeks who, in turn, proved to be a source of inspiration to the Jews.

nightshadetwine
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Image
The Twenty Four Elders Revelation 4:
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_and_Twenty_Elders:
In the centre of a huge hall is placed a throne: round about the Throne are four and twenty seats on which sit four and twenty Elders, robed in white and wearing crowns of gold.[3] In this Assembly is introduced the Lamb that is to be initiated. In front of the Throne are four remarkable beasts (living creatures): one of them is like a lion, another resembles an eagle, the third has the appearance of a calf, and the fourth has the face of a man. These beasts have six wings each, and are full of eyes all over; and they rest not night and day, but keep on blessing the One on the Throne.

The word "Elder" in the majority of places where it is used in the Scriptures means the representative head of a city, family, tribe or nation, so the "Four and Twenty Elders" are representative of the redeemed human race. But why 24 Elders? Twenty-four is the number of the Priestly Courses as given in 1. Chron. 24:1-19. When David distributed the Priests into "Courses" he found there were 24 Heads of the Priestly families, and these 24 Heads he made representative of the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD. As the "Elders" are representative of both the Old and New Testament Saints, and the Old Testament Saints are represented by the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and the New Testament Saints' by the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, they together make up 24 representative characters. This distinction is clearly brought out in the description of the New Jerusalem, where the 12 Foundation Stones are named after the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and the 12 Gates after the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Rev. 21:10-14
In Revelation god sits on a throne in a hall with twenty four elders that sit on thrones and four living creatures. The twenty four elders may represent the twelve tribes of Israel and twelve apostles. In the Book of the Dead Osiris sits on a throne in the Hall of Truth near the forty two judges and the four sons of Horus. The forty two judges represented the forty-two provinces of Upper and Lower Egypt.
The forty two Judges from the Book of The Dead:
https://www.ancient.eu/article/185/the- ... wo-judges/
The Forty-Two Judges were the divine beings of the Egyptian after-life who presided over the Hall of Truth where the great god Osiris judged the dead...Although Osiris was the principal judge of the dead, the Forty-Two Judges sat in council with him to determine the worthiness of the soul to enjoy continued existence. They represented the forty-two provinces of Upper and Lower Egypt, and each judge was responsible for considering a particular aspect of the deceased’s conscience.
Osiris on his throne with the forty two judges at the top of the picture and the four sons of horus in front of the throne:
Image
Image

lsayre
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by lsayre » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:34 am

DCHindley wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am
IMHO, Paul was not in any way involved in this development. To me, he had led an independent movement that accepted gentiles as "children of Abraham" if they believed that God would one day deliver on his promise to deliver a bountiful land of milk & honey for his children to inherit. They had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus movement. The mystery religious elements were introduced into his existing writings by the gentile "christians" who had developed it in a process of adoption and adaptation. Unfortunately, Pauls' theology of gentile justification before god in the age to come, and the Divine Redeemer myth developed by Jesus' gentile convert followers, mix like oil and water making the Paulines as they stand now a mess to interpret.

DCH
As such, is it possible that Paul's movement predates Christianity?

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MrMacSon
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:28 am

DCHindley wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am

IMHO, Paul was not in any way involved in this development. To me, he had led an independent movement that accepted gentiles as "children of Abraham" if they believed that God would one day deliver on his promise to deliver a bountiful land of milk & honey for his children to inherit. They had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus movement. The mystery religious elements were introduced into his existing writings by the gentile "christians" who had developed it in a process of adoption and adaptation. Unfortunately, Pauls' theology of gentile justification before god in the age to come, and the Divine Redeemer myth developed by Jesus' gentile convert followers, mix like oil and water making the Paulines as they stand now a mess to interpret.

DCH
Insightful comments.

lsayre wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:34 am
As such, is it possible that Paul's movement predates Christianity?
I think it's a good possibility. One or more of the Dutch Radicals deduced that Paul represented a gnostic messsianic cult and the gospels represented a Jewish messianic cult and the two were rivals. They (+/or others) deduced that Acts was written when the two decided to resolve their differences, possibly in the 2nd or 3rd generation of the cult - one Dutch Radical said after 75 yrs of antagonism- perhaps when the original members had died. Paul may be a literary device, too.

nightshadetwine
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:37 am

Revelation 19:
Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head.
From Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers https://biblehub.com/revelation/19-12.htm:
He wears many crowns--diadems--crowns rather of royalty than of victory. Some have thought that the crowns He wears are crowns taken from the heads of the kings who have made war with Him (Revelation 19:12-13, and Revelation 19:19). It is needless to suppose this; their crowns were His before they were discrowned. The diadems He wears proclaim that not only over a worldwide empire He is king, but of all nations He is truly king. He is not as an emperor among kings, the head of a federation of princedoms; but He is truly King--King of history, King of life, King of human hearts, King everywhere, over each realm and over all realms, King of kings, and Lord of lords.
In Revelation 19 Jesus/god wages war against his enemies, judges, and wears many crowns. In the Books of the Netherworld the sun god rages war against his enemies, judges the dead, and wears crowns.

From The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife By Erik Hornung:
the lower register is concerned with crowns as symbols of power that are to be worn[by the sun god] while leaving the netherworld...
The Amduat papyrus of Panebmontu by John H. Taylor:
At the front of the group is a figure with two heads, one wearing the White Crown and the other the Red
Crown; in New Kingdom versions of the Amduat this figure appears to represent the sun god
(Hornung 1963-7 Vol. I, 180; Vol. II, 175; Warburton 2007, 330), an identification supported
by the depiction of a solar disc between the two heads...

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:59 pm

lsayre wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:34 am
DCHindley wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am
IMHO, Paul was not in any way involved in this development. To me, he had led an independent movement that accepted gentiles as "children of Abraham" if they believed that God would one day deliver on his promise to deliver a bountiful land of milk & honey for his children to inherit. They had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus movement. The mystery religious elements were introduced into his existing writings by the gentile "christians" who had developed it in a process of adoption and adaptation. Unfortunately, Pauls' theology of gentile justification before god in the age to come, and the Divine Redeemer myth developed by Jesus' gentile convert followers, mix like oil and water making the Paulines as they stand now a mess to interpret.

DCH
As such, is it possible that Paul's movement predates Christianity?
lsayre,

I'd call them near contemporary to one another.

Jesus flourished somewhere between 21 & 36 CE, depending on whose POV you subscribe to. If the Acts of Pilate and Jesus published by co-emperor Maximinus Daia around 311 CE can be trusted then Jesus suffered in 21 CE. If Nikos Kokkinos is correct, it was around 35-36 CE. The traditional date(s) are 29-33 CE.

While I'm not a fan of "conspiracy theories" to explain Christian origins (e.g., it was invented lock stock and barrel by Constantine the Great and spoon fed to his subjects so artfully that nobody suspected a thing, and the church grew to become the beast of Revelation), I do think that the dating of Pilates' day-commentaries to 21 CE plus irregularities in the way Josephus dates the governorship of both Pilate and his predecessor (were made in a way that was outside of Josephus' usual fashion), suggests that Josephus was indeed altered to make the date stated in Max. Daias publication of Pilate's Commentaries (21 CE) impossible, thus preserving the Christian date, 29-33 CE.

I'm sure it was political, but was done simply to cull favor with the Christians, whose support he needed to overthrow the other three tetrarchs of the Roman empire. Eusebius may not have ever read Josephus before Constantine presents him with a new copy that has the alterations, but it made Christian claims to 29-33 CE seem confirmed by a bona-fide historical source. He may have suspected, but endorsed it anyways (i.e., "if you accept the authority of Josephus ... then Max. Daia's Pilates' Commentaries have to be forgeries").

While Paul, ignoring Acts, leaves me two datable events: The man of sin letter would be datable to around 39-40 CE, assuming it referred to the "Caligula scare" and the valiant efforts of Petronius the governor of Syria to thwart him from starting a very serious rebellion among Jews by his provocations (let the reader be aware, a version of this is playing-out right now in the USA).

The slut shaming Paul unloads on some hussy who dared pray with an uncovered head, was probably directed at dowager Queen Helena of the Persian client kingdom of Adiabene between 39 CE because. Her son, King Izatus, a god-fearing convert to Judaism, later had himself circumcised, which his mom apparently signed off on grudgingly. She had made a Nazirite vow when her son Izatus faced a rebellion for his becoming a circumcized Judean. Since he prevailed, she was came to Jerusalem to fulfill the vow around the early to mid 50s CE. That means letting her hair grow, and at the end, having it sheared off. Perhaps she proudly displayed her shorn locks, which infuriated Paul. I believe this would have occurred before 58 CE, which was when she traveled back to Adiabene upon hearing of her son's death, to support her . younger son Monobazus' claim to the throne. He too had had himself circumcised when his brother Izatus had done so.

My version of Paul happened to favor gentiles reconciling themselves to God by means of faith in a future blessed age (no mention of an anointed leader to lead that age in, like Jesus' followers apparently did, meaning he just felt that God would do it himself by means of his angels), without resorting to circumcision to get it.

FWIW, I put no credence in theories that date Paul to the 1st or 2nd century BCE.

DCH

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:17 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:28 am
lsayre wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:34 am
As such, is it possible that Paul's movement predates Christianity?
I think it's a good possibility. One or more of the Dutch Radicals deduced that Paul represented a gnostic messsianic cult and the gospels represented a Jewish messianic cult and the two were rivals. They (+/or others) deduced that Acts was written when the two decided to resolve their differences, possibly in the 2nd or 3rd generation of the cult - one Dutch Radical said after 75 yrs of antagonism- perhaps when the original members had died. Paul may be a literary device, too.
Personally, I don't put a lot of credence in a secret Pauline Gnostic cult of a god, Jesus, rivaling a Jewish movement that revered a man, Jesus. Like in the TV ads where a guy with the chocolate who bumps into a person with peanut butter, resulting in Reece's cups, we get a God-Man as a result.

DCH

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