The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

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lsayre
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by lsayre » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:20 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:59 pm
My version of Paul happened to favor gentiles reconciling themselves to God by means of faith in a future blessed age (no mention of an anointed leader to lead that age in, like Jesus' followers apparently did, meaning he just felt that God would do it himself by means of his angels), without resorting to circumcision to get it.

FWIW, I put no credence in theories that date Paul to the 1st or 2nd century BCE.

DCH
Doug, do you believe that Paul's letters (those most likely to be from him) had a Jesus Christ figure imposed upon them at a later date? And that as originally penned, they did not include a Jesus Christ?

I've held to an opinion that the "real" Paul was promoting himself as a god figure. Would you go that far?

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:40 pm

lsayre wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:20 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:59 pm
My version of Paul happened to favor gentiles reconciling themselves to God by means of faith in a future blessed age (no mention of an anointed leader to lead that age in, like Jesus' followers apparently did, meaning he just felt that God would do it himself by means of his angels), without resorting to circumcision to get it.

FWIW, I put no credence in theories that date Paul to the 1st or 2nd century BCE.

DCH
Doug, do you believe that Paul's letters (those most likely to be from him) had a Jesus Christ figure imposed upon them at a later date?
Yes.
And that as originally penned, they did not include a Jesus Christ?
No. When I started down this trail in the early 1990s I tried very hard to find a human Jesus of any kind, or an anointed one, but to no avail. The project actually started to try to figure out exactly what points Paul was trying to make by connecting the relevant parts and marking off the rest. I was able to get that doctrine I mentioned before (gentiles declared righteous before God on the basis that they believed that God would deliver in that promise one day, and they could participate too, without converting to be a Judean. This I find in all of the letters, if that doesn't place me in the la-la land of nut cakes, have this exact scenario as the central focus. I do not restrict the letters to a small set of "authentic" because this is almost always based on their christology, which is what I think was spliced in there by an editor.

Most all of the materials that intervened between those snippets of Abraham theology, what I call "digressions" and "glosses," were Christ related segments but offered no coherent doctrine between letters, like it was still new and still rough around the edges. Not like the Gospels, where everything is settled.
I've held to an opinion that the "real" Paul was promoting himself as a god figure. Would you go that far?
No. That sounds a bit like something one might read in the pseudo-Clementine literature. My personal opinion is that the P-Clementine literature is not based on anything early, like a "Preaching of Peter." I mean, wizards boldly displaying their magic and/or supernatural powers, flying about in aerial combat above the Roman Coliseum? It sounds more like a bad play with a circus acrobat scene, in costume! Maybe that is what it once was, just a comical recounting of a real show - at the theater using lines and pulleys - dusted off and jazzed up with characters like James the Just, Simon Peter, and the evil Simon Magus (a stand-in for Paul).

DCH

PS: Larry, you can call me Dave (real name). :P

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MrMacSon
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:40 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:28 am
lsayre wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:34 am
As such, is it possible that Paul's movement predates Christianity?
I think it's a good possibility. One or more of the Dutch Radicals deduced that Paul represented a gnostic messsianic cult and the gospels represented a Jewish messianic cult and the two were rivals. They (+/or others) deduced that Acts was written when the two decided to resolve their differences, possibly in the 2nd or 3rd generation of the cult - one Dutch Radical said after 75 yrs of antagonism- perhaps when the original members had died. Paul may be a literary device, too.
DCHindley wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:17 pm
Personally, I don't put a lot of credence in a secret Pauline Gnostic cult of a god, Jesus, rivaling a Jewish movement that revered a man, Jesus. Like in the TV ads where a guy with the chocolate who bumps into a person with peanut butter, resulting in Reece's cups, we get a God-Man as a result.
I'm not proposing a secret cult, and I'm not sure anyone else is or has.

The Dutch Radicals that addressed this were talking about a messianic cult; not necessarily a Jesus-following one - perhaps a Christ-revering one.

Like you have just agreed, it seems likely that "Paul's letters (those most likely to be from him) had a Jesus [Christ] figure imposed upon them at a later date" ie. a Jesus imposed on a Christ or a Jesus figure conflated with and merged in a Christ.

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MrMacSon
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:41 pm

lsayre wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:20 pm
Doug, do you believe ...
This is how new cult figures would have started ... :P

lsayre
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by lsayre » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:29 am

Oops, I promise to never call Dave Doug again!!! Sorry about that Dave. :oops:

robert j
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by robert j » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 am

David,

I’m curious about the specific instances in Paul’s letters of “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” that prompted you to adopt such a radical solution as carving away significant and extensive portions of the letters to resolve your perceived problems.

Highlighting mine ----
DCHindley wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:40 pm

... When I started down this trail in the early 1990s I tried very hard to find a human Jesus of any kind, or an anointed one, but to no avail. The project actually started to try to figure out exactly what points Paul was trying to make by connecting the relevant parts and marking off the rest. I was able to get that doctrine I mentioned before (gentiles declared righteous before God on the basis that they believed that God would deliver in that promise one day, and they could participate too, without converting to be a Judean. This I find in all of the letters, if that doesn't place me in the la-la land of nut cakes, have this exact scenario as the central focus. I do not restrict the letters to a small set of "authentic" because this is almost always based on their christology, which is what I think was spliced in there by an editor.

Most all of the materials that intervened between those snippets of Abraham theology, what I call "digressions" and "glosses," were Christ related segments but offered no coherent doctrine between letters ...

DCH
You acknowledge that the determination of “authentic" letters is almost always based on their Christology, and that your problems with Paul’s letters are seemingly irreconcilable and incoherent Christ related segments. Yes, at least in part, those letters not generally considered to be by Paul are split apart based on an evolution in Christology (and/or soteriology). So for my question here, let’s set aside the Deutero-Paulines and the Pastorals.

In the letters generally considered to be by Paul and addressed to his communities (1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Philippians), what “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” did you find that cannot be reasonably explained for the occasional writings of an entrepreneurial evangelist over a period of some years addressing quite different concerns, questions, and opposition in different congregations with different personalities and cultural influences in Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Achaia?

A couple of examples?

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:07 pm

robert j wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 am
David,

I’m curious about the specific instances in Paul’s letters of “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” that prompted you to adopt such a radical solution as carving away significant and extensive portions of the letters to resolve your perceived problems.

...

You acknowledge that the determination of “authentic" letters is almost always based on their Christology, and that your problems with Paul’s letters are seemingly irreconcilable and incoherent Christ related segments. Yes, at least in part, those letters not generally considered to be by Paul are split apart based on an evolution in Christology (and/or soteriology). So for my question here, let’s set aside the Deutero-Paulines and the Pastorals.

In the letters generally considered to be by Paul and addressed to his communities (1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Philippians), what “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” did you find that cannot be reasonably explained for the occasional writings of an entrepreneurial evangelist over a period of some years addressing quite different concerns, questions, and opposition in different congregations with different personalities and cultural influences in Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Achaia?

A couple of examples?
Rather than hijack this thread, I'll post a separate thread to take a look at what I refer to. If you would like, an older set of parsed files for each book (in English only) can be see at Ben Smith's old Text Excavation site:

http://www.textexcavation.com/dch.html

My views on some of the finer points have evolved over time, but not radically so. I have since then developed full Unicode Greek-English analytical tables of Galatians, Romans and 1 Corinthians, which have been posted here in the past. They are a lot of work, and I am not yet perfectly happy with the look and feel, and have devoted somewhat less effort to develop the theology of the Christological passages than I have the Abrahamic theology I think was Paul's focus. I could produce them for any of the other books if you want to look at Pastorals, etc.

Until then ...

DCH :wtf:

robert j
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by robert j » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:25 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:07 pm
robert j wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:26 am
A couple of examples?
Rather than hijack this thread, I'll post a separate thread to take a look at what I refer to

DCH :wtf:
I'll keep an eye out for it. I'm just looking for a couple of examples of where you found “Christ related segments (that) offered no coherent doctrine between letters” from among the five letters I mentioned.

nightshadetwine
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by nightshadetwine » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:53 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 pm
DCHindley wrote:PS: I will follow with a post with a table that shows where this gem & pure gold imagery for the Heavenly Jerusalem probably really came from. It may or not be what you expect.
What I mean here is that this Gem imagery and talk of Gold "as clear as glass," seems in actuality to stem from Plato's Phaedo 109a-111c:

So, these parts of the book of Revelation are actually derived (probably indirectly) from Plato!

Who knew?

DCH
I was just re-reading this and then decided to read more of Plato's "Phaedo" and I came across a section where the judgement of the dead is described and there's a lake of fire and other lakes of purification and the damned are thrown into Tartarus like in Revelation. I know a lot of Greeks claimed that Plato, Pythagorus, and the Orphics got their teachings from the Egyptians so maybe that's where all this originated from.

Plato, Phaedo, 112e-114c:
Now it is possible to go down from each side to the center, but not beyond, for there the slope rises forward in front of the streams from either side of the earth.“Now these streams are many and great and of all sorts, but among the many are four streams, the greatest and outermost of which is that called Oceanus, which flows round in a circle, and opposite this, flowing in the opposite direction, is Acheron, which flows through various desert places and, passing under the earth, comes to the Acherusian lake. To this lake the souls of most of the dead go and, after remaining there the appointed time, which is for some longer and for others shorter, are sent back to be born again into living beings. The third river flows out between these two, and near the place whence it issues it falls into a vast region burning with a great fire and makes a lake larger than our Mediterranean sea, boiling with water and mud. Thence it flows in a circle, turbid and muddy, and comes in its winding course, among other places, to the edge of the Acherusian lake, but does not mingle with its water. Then, after winding about many times underground, it flows into Tartarus at a lower level. This is the river which is called Pyriphlegethon, and the streams of lava which spout up at various places on earth are offshoots from it. Opposite this the fourth river issues, it is said, first into a wild and awful place, which is all of a dark blue color, like lapis lazuli. This is called the Stygian river, and the lake which it forms by flowing in is the Styx. And when the river has flowed in here and has received fearful powers into its waters, it passes under the earth and, circling round in the direction opposed to that of Pyriphlegethon, it meets it coming from the other way in the Acherusian lake. And the water of this river also mingles with no other water, but this also passes round in a circle and falls into Tartarus opposite Pyriphlegethon. And the name of this river, as the Poets say, is Cocytus. Such is the nature of these things. Now when the dead have come to the place where each is led by his genius, first they are judged and sentenced, as they have lived well and piously, or not. And those who are found to have lived neither well nor ill, go to the Acheron and, embarking upon vessels provided for them, arrive in them at the lake; there they dwell and are purified, and if they have done any wrong they are absolved by paying the penalty for their wrong doings, and for their good deeds they receive rewards, each according to his merits. But those who appear to be incurable, on account of the greatness of their wrongdoings, because they have committed many great deeds of sacrilege, or wicked and abominable murders, or any other such crimes, are cast by their fitting destiny into Tartarus, whence they never emerge. Those, however, who are curable, but are found to have committed great sins—who have, for example, in a moment of passion done some act of violence against father or mother and have lived in repentance the rest of their lives, or who have slain some other person under similar conditions—these must needs be thrown into Tartarus, and when they have been there a year the wave casts them out, the homicides by way of Cocytus, those who have outraged their parents by way of Pyriphlegethon. And when they have been brought by the current to the Acherusian lake, they shout and cry out, calling to those whom they have slain or outraged, begging and beseeching them to be gracious and to let them come out into the lake; and if they prevail they come out and cease from their ills, but if not, they are borne away again to Tartarus and thence back into the rivers, and this goes on until they prevail upon those whom they have wronged; for this is the penalty imposed upon them by the judges. But those who are found to have excelled in holy living are freed from these regions within the earth and are released as from prisons; they mount upward into their pure abode and dwell upon the earth. And of these, all who have duly purified themselves by philosophy live henceforth altogether without bodies, and pass to still more beautiful abodes which it is not easy to describe, nor have we now time enough.

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DCHindley
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Re: The book of Revelation and the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Post by DCHindley » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:25 am

nightshadetwine wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:53 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:39 pm
DCHindley wrote:PS: I will follow with a post with a table that shows where this gem & pure gold imagery for the Heavenly Jerusalem probably really came from. It may or not be what you expect.
What I mean here is that this Gem imagery and talk of Gold "as clear as glass," seems in actuality to stem from Plato's Phaedo 109a-111c:

So, these parts of the book of Revelation are actually derived (probably indirectly) from Plato!
I was just re-reading this and then decided to read more of Plato's "Phaedo" and I came across a section where the judgement of the dead is described and there's a lake of fire and other lakes of purification and the damned are thrown into Tartarus like in Revelation. I know a lot of Greeks claimed that Plato, Pythagorus, and the Orphics got their teachings from the Egyptians so maybe that's where all this originated from.

Plato, Phaedo, 112e-114c:
...
Personally I'm not so keen on the idea that Egyptian ideas influenced Plato as much as you suspect. In Athens they were probably aware of Egypt and may have seen some of the goods brought back by cargo ships and heard about their wild traditions, being so different than Hellenes were accustomed to. So, yes, some of this may have colored Hellenic myth making. Athenians could also have had their own traditions about afterlife that may have included punishment for the bad and rewards for the good. The Elysian plains are an example, although they apply to human or semi-divine Heroes of legend upon whom the gods had imparted immortality.

IMHO, though, Judeans did not seem to have much influence from Egyptian myths, although there was a strong regional rivalry between them, full of hot headed polemics.

There was a hardcover book written and/or edited by Russell Gmirkin & Andrew Mein entitled Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch (T & T Clark, 2006)" which I have seen available online but I don't recall where.

More to point, Russell's recent book, Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible (Hardcover by Routledge, but available in Kindle edition, 2016). When I last looked at this book, Gmirkin was asking for US $40+ for the Kindle edition, which I thought was a bit excessive, so I did not buy it.

However, he brings up many connections between Egyptian and Judean foundation myths as found in Berossus, the Pentateuch and some other Greek writers including Josephus' Against Apion. He confidently dates the stage of mythic development that seems to be common between the accounts of Exodus and Berossus' report of Egyptian polemic to the 3rd century BCE. Egypt had recently been subjugated by Alexander the Great, and Greek language was introduced by the ruling class of Hellenes, and with it Plato, Herodotus, etc. It became quite the rage among scribes, who held a good deal of sway in those days (not so much later), to learn Greek and make use of its myths. Judeans resident in Egypt were among these.

Here's his own web page on this: http://russellgmirkin.com/
I am best known for my research on the circumstances behind the creation of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Jewish Bible or Old Testament.

In my 2006 book Berossus and Genesis, I argued that the very first evidence for the Hebrew Bible was the translation of the Books of Moses into Greek around 270 BCE, the famous Septuagint translation made by Jewish scholars for the Great Library of Alexandria. I proposed that these same Jewish scholars also wrote the Books of Moses on this same occasion, using various Greek sources found in the Great Library.

My latest book, Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible, argues that Plato's Laws was one of those sources, pointing out that many biblical laws have their best and often only legal parallel in Plato, corroborating the late date of the Books of Moses. Plato's Laws also described a program for creating a national library of approved ethical texts that appears to have been the direct inspiration for the Hebrew Bible.
He supports himself as a freelance Editor, Proofreader/copywriter, and writing consultant. His research appears to be very thorough and his books have been published by major publishers who do their own peer review.

DCH

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