No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Giuseppe
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:48 pm This is a paradigmatic example of your kind of reasoning, Giuseppe. Interpret something from the canonical gospels, assume that in the Marcionite gospel it must have been the opposite, and then interpret this manufactured datum from the Marcionite gospel as if it were a textual discovery you had just made.
I am sorry Ben but here I can't follow your blind confidence in the fact that our Mark is the Earliest Gospel so as it stands.

. Surely our Gospels are corrupted versions of the marcionite Gospel. Hence the Son of Man may well be an interpolation.

There are two "Giuseppe". When I accept Mark's priority, I can only repeat what RG Price shows in the his book. It is boring but effective only against Christian apologists.

When I don't accept Mark's priority (as in this thread), then I have to start with the assumption that a great part of Mark was inserted against Marcion (beginning from the Barabbas episode: docet Couchoud).

Also Barabbas was found in Marcion's Gospel, but it is evident that Barabbas is anti-marcionite. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4520

From the entire patristic tradition, the only interesting and useful thing is the Ireneus's claim: the original readers of Mark were separationists. The rest is really shit.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Ben's irony:
The Son of Man is found in Marcion, "therefore" Marcion is later than a not-marcionite Mark.

Secret Alias's irony:
The Son of Man is found in Marcion, "therefore" Marcion adores the danielic Son of Man.

I disagree with both the conclusions.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:02 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:48 pm This is a paradigmatic example of your kind of reasoning, Giuseppe. Interpret something from the canonical gospels, assume that in the Marcionite gospel it must have been the opposite, and then interpret this manufactured datum from the Marcionite gospel as if it were a textual discovery you had just made.
I am sorry Ben but here I can't follow your blind confidence in the fact that our Mark is the Earliest Gospel so as it stands.
And here you demonstrate an inability to read. I said nothing about Marcan priority. I was talking about your style of reasoning, and what I said depends in no way upon Marcan priority. Assume Marcionite priority, and my point still either stands or falls on its own merits.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:22 pm Ben's irony:
The Son of Man is found in Marcion, "therefore" Marcion is later than a not-marcionite Mark.

Secret Alias's irony:
The Son of Man is found in Marcion, "therefore" Marcion adores the danielic Son of Man.

I disagree with both the conclusions.
None of this reflects what I said, nor what I think.

ETA: In other words, you did it again. You originally made assumptions that led you to the incorrect conclusion that "son of man" was probably lacking from the Marcionite gospel. And now you made assumptions about my way of thinking which I can personally confirm are incorrect. Your trouble is the flood of assumptions that you make, only some of which are justified.
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:09 pm Assume Marcionite priority, and my point still either stands or falls on its own merits.
No, Ben. I disagree with this. If Marcion comes before Mark, the fact that the Fathers of the Church report that “Son of Man” was found in their version of Marcion's Gospel is still not evidence of the real presence of “Son of Man” in the Marcion's Gospel, not more than Barabbas is found in Marcion only because Tertullian reports so.

I have given a sound reason to doubt strongly, at least a priori, about the presence of Son of Man in Marcion:
“Son of Man” vehicles as first meaning to a person entirely ignorant of Christian things, that the Son of Man, whoever he is,is also a human being. Could Marcion claim something of the kind about his Christ? Prima facie, i.e. a priori, the answer is a clear “no!”.

But Ben claims that a marcionite reading had to accept, velim nolim, the interpretation of “Son of Man” in a Marcionite sense. I am sorry but I can't find one. Even if I am well aware that Hermann Raschke has tried to harmonize the Son of Man with a marcionite priority.

Therefore the presence of “Son of Man” is not reconcilable with the Marcionite priority, pace what the Fathers say or report.

A posteriori, I have given sound reasons to believe that just in the more important passage where “Son of Man” is mentioned, a separationist reading of Mark 14:62 requires that in that precise moment who is going to be exalted/ascended/revealed/escaped is the divine Christ, not the man or son of man who will be beaten and crucified.
Last edited by Giuseppe on Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:09 pm ETA: In other words, you did it again. You originally made assumptions that led you to the incorrect conclusion that "son of man" was probably lacking from the Marcionite gospel. And now you made assumptions about my way of thinking which I can personally confirm are incorrect. Your trouble is the flood of assumptions that you make, only some of which are justified.
I find a bit disturbing your dogmatic certainty that Son of Man “HAS” to be in Marcion's Gospel, against any possibility of the contrary, only because Stuart has given a lot of evidence of the mention of Son of Man in the Gnostic/Marcionite tradition.

You want to move me to accept velim nolim Son of Man in Marcion's Gospel, without any reason different from what the Fathers say.

At least Stuart is more liberal insofar he allows a different meaning for the marcionite use of Son of Man than the danielic sense.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:48 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:09 pm Assume Marcionite priority, and my point still either stands or falls on its own merits.
No, Ben. I disagree with this. If Marcion comes before Mark, the fact that the Fathers of the Church report that “Son of Man” was found in their version of Marcion's Gospel is still not evidence of the real presence of “Son of Man” in the Marcion's Gospel, not more than Barabbas is found in Marcion only because Tertullian reports so.

I have given a sound reason to doubt strongly, at least a priori, about the presence of Son of Man in Marcion:
“Son of Man” veichles as first meaning to a person entirely ignorant of Christian things, that the Son of Man, whoever he is,is also a human being. Could Marcion claim something of the kind about his Christ? Prima facie, i.e. a priori, the answer is a clear “no!”.

But Ben claims that a marcionite reading had to accept, velim nolim, the interpretation of “Son of Man” in a Marcionite sense. I am sorry but I can't find one. Even if I am well aware that Hermann Raschke has tried to harmonize the Son of Man with a marcionite priority.

Therefore the presence of “Son of Man” is not reconcilable with the Marcionite priority, pace what the Fathers say or report.

A posteriori, I have given sound reasons to believe that just in the more important passage where “Son of Man” is mentioned, a separationist reading of Mark 14:62 requires that in that precise moment who is going to be exalted/ascended/revealed/escaped is the divine Christ, not the man or son of man who will be beaten and crucified.
:facepalm: So, basically, your raft of assumptions is a better guide to reconstructing Marcion than the available evidence is. Got it.
I find a bit disturbing your dogmatic certainty that Son of Man “HAS” to be in Marcion's Gospel, against any possibility of the contrary, only because Stuart has given a lot of evidence of the mention of Son of Man in the Gnostic/Marcionite tradition.
Yes, my looking to the evidence (and lots of it!) must be disturbing to a genius like you who does not need it.
You want to move me to accept velim nolim Son of Man in Marcion's Gospel, without any reason different from what the Fathers say.
No, I want you to look to the evidence for guidance rather than to your assumptions. I literally could not care less where you land once you start doing that. I want you to stop engaging in fallacy.
At least Stuart is more liberal insofar he allows a different meaning for the marcionite use of Son of Man than the danielic sense.
More liberal than what/whom?
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:58 pm I want you to stop engaging in fallacy.
I change ideas continually, but in this moment I feel that I am on something of very solid when I insist that the trial before the sinedrites is an allegory of a trial before the demons to ascend to upper heavens via the giving of right passwords.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:58 pm
At least Stuart is more liberal insofar he allows a different meaning for the marcionite use of Son of Man than the danielic sense.
More liberal than what/whom?
surely than Secret Alias's rigid interpretation of Son of Man as the danielic and only danielic Son of Man.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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Here is where I read the Raschke's exegesis about Son of Man:


The significance of the term “Son of Man” in the Gospel


It has previously been mentioned that in the Gnostic doctrine the three principles of the universe were pneuma, psyche, and matter. In view of this, and of the fact that Mark’s Gospel is Gnostic in character, Raschke has given a very interesting and satisfactory explanation of the writer’s use of the term “Son of Man.” All Gnostics did not agree with regard to the nature of the body of Jesus, but the general opinion, which was held by Marcion, was that the body of Jesus was psyche, since he was of the same nature as the angels. Pneuma descended into him at his baptism in the Jordan ; he thus became—what he had not been before—the Son of God and of the Holy Spirit, since pneuma was the pure spirit of God. Now, the spirit of God could not die, nor could it be allowed to suffer indignity; hence the Gnostics maintained that only the visible body—the psyche of Jesus—suffered and died, but that the pneuma left him as soon as he fell into the hands of his enemies. This departure of the pneuma from the psyche gives the explanation of the young man having a linen cloth about his naked body, who was seized with Jesus, but fled, leaving the linen cloth in the hands of his captors. This linen cloth symbolizes the visible body of Jesus; the naked body which fled, the disembodied spirit. It was quite usual for ancient writers to speak of a disembodied spirit as naked. The Gnostic Paul does so in II Corinthians v, 3, where, writing of the heavenly body in which the spirit will in the future be clothed, he says : “ If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.”
Raschke, applying this Gnostic doctrine and symbolism, maintains that when Jesus says “I” he is speaking as pneuma, for it was the pneuma which was the real Christ, the Son of God; but when he uses the term “Son of Man” he is speaking of the psyche. In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus is never made to say “I” shall suffer, “I” shall be put to death, but always the “Son of Man” shall suffer. The term “Son of Man” is, of course, taken from the Jewish apocalyptic literature.
Raschke’s explanation gives the clue to the significance of the much-debated verse, Matthew xii, 32. The Son of Man, the visible form of Jesus, being psyche merely and not divine, to speak a word against him was not blasphemy. The Jews, however, had said that Jesus had an unclean spirit; therein they had spoken against the pneuma, the Holy Spirit, which was an emanation from God himself, and thus had incurred the guilt of blasphemy. It is rather remarkable that in Mark the corresponding verse to this is missing, and the antithesis between Son of Man and Holy Spirit is not sharply drawn, though it is there that one would particularly expect to find it. It may be that the manuscripts of Mark’s Gospel are corrupt at this point, and that the phrase “sons of rnen,” in chap, iii, 28, represents an original reading, “Son of Man.” Luke also has “Son of Man” in the corresponding passage. It is rather strange that in Matthew the unforgivableness of speech against the Holy Spirit is affirmed in two consecutive verses, one of which corresponds with Mark and one with Luke. One may suspect that there is here a re-duplication, and that Matthew xii, 32, and Luke xii, 10, give the original form of the verse. Otherwise one must suppose that Matthew understood and adopted the Marcan phrase, which is not likely, since that writer was not a Gnostic and is antagonistic to Mark on important matters of doctrine.
A probable solution of this little problem is that, since in this case the Gnostic implication of the phrase, “Son of Man,” was particularly obvious, an attempt was made to remove it. When, from motives of policy, the Catholic Church accepted Mark’s Gospel, the bishops doubtless removed, as far as was possible and as they considered necessary, its Gnostic characteristics. It was much less urgent to alter the corresponding verse in Matthew in this case, because the congregations which used Matthew’s Gospel were not in danger of being injured by it. It was, however, important to eradicate Gnostic doctrine in the communities in which Mark was read. The alteration may have been made in some manuscripts of Matthew’s Gospel—a supposition which would account for the fact that in that Gospel we now have both forms of the verse.


(L. G. Rylands, Did Jesus ever live?, p. 206-209)

He does a good point about the distinction between who has to suffer (the Son of Man) and who not (the real Christ as distinct from the man Jesus).

In this separationist sense, the Son of Man = the man Jesus.

But against Rasckhe, even if he agrees with me that the divine Christ “left him as soon as he fell into the hands of his enemies” - probably in Mark 14:62 - then why in Mark 14:62 the evangelist is speaking about the exaltation (and therefore about the fugue from the death) of the Son of Man? Even worse, by citing the hated Daniel?

If Son of Man was found in Marcion (as another name for the man Jesus), then surely the quote from Daniel - note in particular the emphasis on the descending of the Son of Man, contra the fact that the man Jesus was already on the earth from the his birth and was not descended - is a later anti-marcionite interpolation.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: No “Son of Man” in Marcion

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And note another contradiction in Raschke's harmonization:
In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus is never made to say “I” shall suffer, “I” shall be put to death, but always the “Son of Man” shall suffer. The term “Son of Man” is, of course, taken from the Jewish apocalyptic literature.

The problem is that Jesus doesn't say simply
the “Son of Man” shall suffer
He says also that the “Son of Man” will be risen. Could the man Jesus be really risen in a separationist/docetic sense? Hardly so, since the man Jesus was even mocked by the divine Christ.

if the “Son of Man” rises, i.e., if the man Jesus rises after the his death, then he is of spiritual nature just as the nature of the Christ, against the premise that the “Son of Man” was not of the same nature of the spiritual Christ.

Raschke seems to accept this latter option when he admits that even the man Jesus is not really a man:
the body of Jesus was psyche, since he was of the same nature as the angels

Hence we would have two spiritual beings, and not a man opposed to a spirit. :!:

This is what I don't want accept. Moving me to reject entirely any mention of Son of Man as anti-marcionite interpolation.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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