Proofs That Jesus Did Not Exist

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
nightshadetwine
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:35 am

Re: Proofs That Jesus Did Not Exist

Post by nightshadetwine » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:43 pm

rgprice wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:05 am
I address it in the book. The first statement is part of an allegory. I take it as an allegorical statement and actually the "woman" Paul is describing is in heaven. The second statement is an obvious interpolation.
Thanks. I've been considering "born of a woman" being allegorical, possibly just meaning that Jesus took part in a lower realm not necessarily the physical realm. I think a lot of people in antiquity believed that there were different realms between the physical and "heavenly"/divine realm, each realm being made up of spirit and a substance like matter(or at least the lower realms) and the lower realms being made up of more matter than spirit. Matter was sometimes symbolized as "feminine" or the "receiver" of spirit/divinity. So being "born of a woman" could just be saying born of a matter like substance that was the receiver of the "christ spirit" in the realm just above the physical realm.

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 5810
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Proofs That Jesus Did Not Exist

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:20 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:13 am
. . .
The mistake that Believers make of course in thinking that they have proved that Jesus existed is that their evidence does not support their conclusion . . .

In order to consider the relationship between evidence and conclusions the process is as follows:
  1. What would be good evidence for a contemporary event?
  2. Good evidence for (1) would be multiple, credible, independent, first-hand evidence that lacks contradicting evidence.
  3. (2) deteriorates with age.

I think in the absence of 'multiple, credible, independent, first-hand accounts' that good evidence could otherwise be something such as

  1. First hand accounts of Peter's and/or James' interactions with Jesus: their accounts of events and places those events took place; and/or
    .
  2. Paul or Mark recounting first-hand accounts of say Peter's, James', etc. experiences with Jesus: having recounted events and places to Paul.
    • (interestingly, Paul criticises Peter and James for living like Gentiles in Galatians 2:11-14)

JoeWallack wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:13 am

Practical examples would be standards used in legal and business settings (what evidence proves that someone died/was born/lived).

If we look at what we have for Jesus there is a big difference between what would be good evidence and the evidence we have ... some Skeptics...think that lack of quality evidence that Jesus existed is quality evidence that Jesus did not exist ... While it's true that the worse the evidence is that Jesus existed the more likely it is that Jesus did not, but, without quality evidence in absolute terms that Jesus did not exist, you are not going to prove that Jesus did not exist because there is a huge difference between what would be good evidence to support that conclusion and the evidence you actually have. This difference is called uncertainty. So why would some Skeptics have such a problem with uncertainty? God knows ...
A standard is they who aver must prove, and they ought to be given the opportunity to.

Joe's point about uncertainty is well made. It is noteworthy that, between absolute certainty or absolute uncertainty, there is a continuum in which degrees of uncertainty are able to be qualified and quantified, by probability.

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Argument From InterSECTionality

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:40 am

ARGUMENT FROM INTERSECTIONALITY
(1) Neal Godfree thinks Israel is racist, apartheid and genocidal.
(2) Therefore, Israel is racist, apartheid and genocidal.
(3) Neal Godfree also thinks that Jesus did not exist.
(4) Therefore, Jesus did not exist.

Giuseppe
Posts: 4887
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Argument From InterSECTionality

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:59 am

JoeWallack wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:40 am
(3) Neal Godfree also thinks that Jesus did not exist.
For what matters my judgement, Neil is a delightful person even to the extent that he has never declared himself a mythicist, leaving open the possibility of a historical Jesus enough to make him an honest interlocutor even with historicist scholars who so far only have the wrong not to really dialogue with him.

Your accusation of Neil as ...., talks more about you than him, frankly.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Argument From InterSECTionality

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:09 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:59 am
JoeWallack wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:40 am
(3) Neal Godfree also thinks that Jesus did not exist.
For what matters my judgement, Neil is a delightful person even to the extent that he has never declared himself a mythicist, leaving open the possibility of a historical Jesus enough to make him an honest interlocutor even with historicist scholars who so far only have the wrong not to really dialogue with him.

Your accusation of Neil as ...., talks more about you than him, frankly.
JW:
I was kind of hoping you would take his side.


Joseph

The New Porphyry

User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: Proofs That Jesus Did Not Exist

Post by arnoldo » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:33 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:13 am
JW:
I hesitate to create this Thread out of fear and astonishment. This Thread of course is the companion to my hilarious and than some Thread here:

Proofs That Jesus Existed

My fear is not so much that Believers will predictably use this Thread as Proof that Jesus did exist but that they will think this Thread is anywhere near as funny. .
1. There is no proof Jesus existed
2. If Jesus had not existed early christians would have invented proofs.
3. Therefore Jesus existed.
:goodmorning:

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 5810
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Proofs That Jesus Did Not Exist

Post by MrMacSon » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:07 pm

One cannot be certain one has proof until one has all the proofs,
Spirituality adds to the proofs, & vice versa,
But with 100-proof whiskey only containing 50% alcohol by volume;
There are no proofs one has all the necessary proofs
that Jesus did of did not exist.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

outhouse
Posts: 3550
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Proofs That Jesus Did Not Exist

Post by outhouse » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:05 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:13 am

The mistake that Believers make of course in thinking that they have proved that Jesus existed is that their evidence does not support their conclusion.
Faulty reasoning, to the point of being laughable Joe.

"Proved" is not really a historical context, and factually all of the NT and non biblical evidence, supports a historical core in said mythology.

To date, factually, no credible hypothesis has been put forward by mythicist that explains the evidence, without large mental hurdles, that cannot be overcome.

Im cot sure you even know what "our" conclusion is. Mainly only two events are universally accepted as certainties, baptism by John and crucifixion under Pilate and Caiaphas. After that it does get dicey on who or which kind of Jesus character one builds from research.

It makes no sense to turn a Aramaic peasant slave into a deity and say he was on stage of the largest event in the Roman Empire with almost half a million people in attendance, when those people were still alive to refute and no one ever did.

Pauline traditions deal with perceived heretical practice of communities who already knew the stories and legends, Pauline text existed within multiple Christologies at said time while the temple still stood. TO DATE no mythicst has ever explained this with any credibility, where a historical character being deified by multiple communities each with different versions, who do not have a single fictional source.

Joe these fringe attacks of yours are baseless and unsupportable.

outhouse
Posts: 3550
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Argument From InterSECTionality

Post by outhouse » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:06 pm

JoeWallack wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:40 am
ARGUMENT FROM INTERSECTIONALITY
(1) Neal Godfree thinks Israel is racist, apartheid and genocidal.
(2) Therefore, Israel is racist, apartheid and genocidal.
(3) Neal Godfree also thinks that Jesus did not exist.
(4) Therefore, Jesus did not exist.
very true

outhouse
Posts: 3550
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Proofs That Jesus Did Not Exist

Post by outhouse » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:07 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:20 pm


  1. First hand accounts of Peter's and/or James' interactions with Jesus: their accounts of events and places those events took place; and/or
    .
  2. Paul or Mark recounting first-hand accounts of say Peter's, James', etc. experiences with Jesus: having recounted events and places to Paul.
    • (interestingly, Paul criticises Peter and James for living like Gentiles in Galatians 2:11-14)


Im not sure Peter or James are even required for any aspect of the evolution of Christianity

Post Reply