THE CANA WEDDING = BASED ON JOSEPH CYCLE IN GENESIS ???

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Beverly Devry-Smith
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:54 pm

THE CANA WEDDING = BASED ON JOSEPH CYCLE IN GENESIS ???

Post by Beverly Devry-Smith »

-John 2:5= Jesus mother instructs the servants: "Whatver he says to you, you do (it)!" [ο τι αν λεγη υμιν ποιησατε]
-Gen 41:55= Pharaoh commands the Egyptians exactly the same!: ο αν ειπε υμιν ποιησατε
-as readers, this is a major clue as to John's purpose. He has replaced providentialy-provided 'grain' in the Joseph story with magically transformed 'wine' of quality by Jesus. There are many parallels and references to peruse in John chapter 2=
-Gen 43:24= "(Joseph) brought [και ηνεγκεν] water [υδωρ] to wash their feet."
-John 2:7-8= "Fill [γεμισατε] pitchers with water [υδατος]... and they brought [και ηνεγκαν] them (to the steward)."
Gen 45:17= Pharaoh commands Joseph: "Say to your brethren, 'Fill [γεμισατε] your carts!"
-John 2:9= "He knew not from whence the wine came, but the servants knew." (= compare the situation at Gen 42:25= "Joseph ordered the grain-bins filled up [εμπλησαι]" then at verse 28 the brothers are unsure as to how this happened—obviously Joseph's servants would be aware, though!)
-John 2:10= the groom remarks: "Then, only after they have gotten drunk [οταν μεθυσθωσι] ..."
-Gen 43:34= "They got drunk" [εμεθυσθησαν]
-John 2:6= There were water-jars arranged for Jews "to cleanse [καθαρισμον] themselves"
-Gen 44:10= Joseph says: "Whoever is found (to have stolen) my drinking cup will become my slave —meanwhile, all of you shall be cleansed [καθαροι] (of suspicion.)"
-John 2:1= There was a wedding in Cana of Galilee "and Jesus' mother was there [και ην η ματηρ ... εκει]."
-Gen 44:13-14= "They returned to the city, to Joseph, while he was there [επι ... οντος εκει]."
(((((((((((( EXCURSUS: Between John 2:8 and Mark 2:20f there is "wine" [οινον] and an 'old vs new' comparison. The 4th evangelist is making brief tangential reference to the Mark gospel=
-Mark 2:20= "Whenever [οταν] should the groom [νυμϕιος] depart, then [τοτε] they'll fast."
-John 2:8= "The groom [νυμϕιον] said: 'Whenever [οταν] they are intoxicated, then [τοτε] they bring out the lower quality (wine)...'" )))))))))))) END OF EXCURSUS
-John 2:10= "All other men [πας ανθρωπος] places [τιθησι] first [πρωτον] the good wine, then the lesser..." (=a reference to Joseph's dining with his brothers=)
-Gen 43:32-33= "They placed to him alone a setting [παρεθηκαν ... μονω]... (while) they were seated according to age, from first [πρωτοτοκος] to younger."
-Gen 44:1= Joseph orders his steward [τω επι της οικιας] (literally, 'the one over his house'): 'Stuff these sacks full...'
-Gen 44:4= the framed brothers are asked by the steward: "Why did you replace (=repay) bad (behavior) for good [καλων]?"
-John 2:10= the Cana groom tells the steward: "Usually the good [καλον] wine gets replaced by the bad..." (=the same idea of reversals is present here, though in a strange ironical way)
-Gen 45:5b= Joseph admonishes his family: "Let it not appear [ϕανητω] to you harsh that you betrayed me (in the past)... (verse 13=) (But) Report to my father all my glory [την δοξαν μου] (I've attained in Egypt."
-John 2:11b= Jesus' performing the Cana miracle was the first time in public that: "his glory [την δοξαν αυτου] appeared [εϕανερωσε]—and (due to this) his disciples trusted in him [επιστευσαν εις αυτον]."
-Gen 45:26b= his 10 sons inform Jacob that Joseph survived and is still alive: "But he didn't trust them [ου γαρ επιστευσεν αυτοις]."
-John 2:3= "lacking [υστερησαντος] ... they don't have [ουκ εχουσι] (any) wine."
-John 2:6b= "2 or 3 measures [μετρητας]"
-Gen 47:13-14= "There was no [δε ουκ ην] grain in the whole world.... (so Joseph) measured out grain [εσιτομετρει] (to the Egyptians)."
-Gen 47:18= the Egyptians complain: "There's nothing left remaining [υπολελειπται] to us!"
-Gen 45:15b= "After this (=these things) [μετα ταυτα] his brothers [οι αδελϕοι αυτον] converse with him (at length)."
-John 2:12= "After this [μετα τουτο] he and his mother went down [κατεβη] with his brothers and disciples (into Capernaum) but they remained there not many days [εκει εμειναν ου πολλας ημερας]."
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3411
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: THE CANA WEDDING = BASED ON JOSEPH CYCLE IN GENESIS ???

Post by DCHindley »

Beverly,

I might be helpful to put a little white space in between lines or groups of lines.

As it is, it is difficult to follow what points you are trying to make.

While it may be clear as glass to you, it is clear as mud to me.

Thanx

DCH
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: THE CANA WEDDING = BASED ON JOSEPH CYCLE IN GENESIS ???

Post by Giuseppe »

Beverly, about the midrash from the patriarch Joseph, have you noted that the two fellow prisoners of Joseph (40:1-23) may be similar to the two thieves crucified with Jesus, since that, just as one of them was freed and the other killed, so the same fate was reserved to the two thieves crucified with Jesus by Luke (one was bad and the other deserved the heaven).

What I mean to say is that the fact that “he who was enumerated among the evildoers” could be a reference to the same prisony of Joseph, and hence the evangelist realized the presence of two prisoners/two thieves. Therefore from this POV the evangelist who invented the two thieves (I think he is 'Mark' as distinct from proto-Mark, since for me the author of proto-Mark didn't have no intention at all to point out that the crucified was called “king of Jews” or “Christ” by the other two thieves or by the same pharisees standing before the cross) came from the same world of ideas of “Luke”, the editor of the Marcion's Gospel.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: THE CANA WEDDING = BASED ON JOSEPH CYCLE IN GENESIS ???

Post by neilgodfrey »

The case would be stronger if there were a comparable sequence of the matching details in a single unit of a Joseph narrative. To take details from here and there looks more like forced fishing for matches. Best to have a clear idea of criteria that we will expect genuine parallels to follow.

Another source for the Cana wedding and wine miracle is the exchange between Jesus and the devil in the wilderness where Jesus refuses to perform a miracle. John does his usual thing of bashing the synoptic theology: How John Used the Synoptics: The First Temptation vs. The First Sign -- by Tim Widowfield
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
Post Reply