Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:55 pm

Yeah but so what. The particular version of Paul's letters that were preserved were carefully calibrated (and edited) to support certain orthodox ideas over their heretical opponents. You can hear the layering of edits and different 'takes' throughout chapter 15. Sorry this proves nothing other than what the orthodox wanted Paul to say c. 175 CE.
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John2
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by John2 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:41 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:55 pm
Yeah but so what. The particular version of Paul's letters that were preserved were carefully calibrated (and edited) to support certain orthodox ideas over their heretical opponents. You can hear the layering of edits and different 'takes' throughout chapter 15. Sorry this proves nothing other than what the orthodox wanted Paul to say c. 175 CE.
I wouldn't mind seeing an example of something you consider to be an orthodox "take" in 1 Cor. 15. Just curious.

While I do think there may be some interpolations in 1 Cor. 15, I can think of an example (besides the ones I've cited above regarding spiritual resurrection) of how 1 Cor. 15 does not reflect an orthodox take (even if we remove anything considered to be an interpolation) when Paul says in verses 3-7:
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James ...
But Luke 24:9 and 33-36 say that there were only eleven disciples (after Judas had died) and that Jesus appeared to them after he had appeared to Simon (Peter?) and Cleopas (if Cleopas is not Simon):
When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others.
They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”


Acts 1:26 also says that there were only "eleven" after Judas died:
Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


And Mt. 28:16-17 says that Jesus first appeared to "the eleven" (without first appearing to Cephas only, as per Paul):
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.


In Paul there is no concept of "the Eleven," only of "the Twelve." Nor is there any appearance in the rest of the NT to anyone with the name James who was not part of "the Twelve," only in Paul. So what Paul says is not always in agreement with orthodox Christianity, and I think that is also the case regarding the idea of a spiritual resurrection.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:45 pm

John2 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:48 pm
So there is no re-clothing, only clothing. The physical body is like a "tent" (v. 1) and is "unclothed" (v. 4), and then it dies and is transformed into a spiritual body, or "clothed."
If the old body is transformed, then it no longer exists, right? For example, if it is in a tomb at the moment of transformation into a "spiritual body," however we imagine it, and then the "spiritual body" departs, then that tomb will now be short one body, right?
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John2
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by John2 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:50 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:45 pm
John2 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:48 pm
So there is no re-clothing, only clothing. The physical body is like a "tent" (v. 1) and is "unclothed" (v. 4), and then it dies and is transformed into a spiritual body, or "clothed."
If the old body is transformed, then it no longer exists, right? For example, if it is in a tomb at the moment of transformation into a "spiritual body," however we imagine it, and then the "spiritual body" departs, then that tomb will now be short one body, right?
That is exactly what I'm saying, that this is why there is no body in the tomb in Mark.
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by perseusomega9 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:28 pm

And that is why ,theologically, cremation is a sin.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:55 pm

John2 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:50 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:45 pm
John2 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:48 pm
So there is no re-clothing, only clothing. The physical body is like a "tent" (v. 1) and is "unclothed" (v. 4), and then it dies and is transformed into a spiritual body, or "clothed."
If the old body is transformed, then it no longer exists, right? For example, if it is in a tomb at the moment of transformation into a "spiritual body," however we imagine it, and then the "spiritual body" departs, then that tomb will now be short one body, right?
That is exactly what I'm saying, that this is why there is no body in the tomb in Mark.
Okay, just clarifying. Thanks.
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by hakeem » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:28 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:45 pm
John2 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:48 pm
So there is no re-clothing, only clothing. The physical body is like a "tent" (v. 1) and is "unclothed" (v. 4), and then it dies and is transformed into a spiritual body, or "clothed."
If the old body is transformed, then it no longer exists, right? For example, if it is in a tomb at the moment of transformation into a "spiritual body," however we imagine it, and then the "spiritual body" departs, then that tomb will now be short one body, right?
Your explanation makes very little sense. If Jesus lived and died then belief in a spiritual resurrection could not have made his dead body disappear.

A dead body in a tomb does not vanish because of belief/non-belief.

A resurrection simply means a dead body came back to life.

If people saw the dead body of Jesus in a tomb it would remain there until it rotted or was physical removed.

Christian writers of antiquity who used the NT claimed Jesus came back to life after he was dead for three days.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by GakuseiDon » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:31 am

hakeem wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:28 pm
If Jesus lived and died then belief in a spiritual resurrection could not have made his dead body disappear.
The issue is to avoid confusing modern notions of "spiritual" with ancient notions. There is a difference between sarx (flesh), soma (body), pneuma (spirit, breath, wind) overlapping somewhat with psyche (soul, spirit). Generally, "physical" human bodies were made of flesh (a combination of earth, water, fire, air), while "spiritual" daemon bodies were made of fire and air. Aether was also in the mix for creatures living above the firmament.
hakeem wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:28 pm
If people saw the dead body of Jesus in a tomb it would remain there until it rotted or was physical removed.
Or the body of flesh is transformed into something else, as Ben noted.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

Ulan
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Ulan » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:35 am

hakeem wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:28 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:45 pm
John2 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:48 pm
So there is no re-clothing, only clothing. The physical body is like a "tent" (v. 1) and is "unclothed" (v. 4), and then it dies and is transformed into a spiritual body, or "clothed."
If the old body is transformed, then it no longer exists, right? For example, if it is in a tomb at the moment of transformation into a "spiritual body," however we imagine it, and then the "spiritual body" departs, then that tomb will now be short one body, right?
Your explanation makes very little sense. If Jesus lived and died then belief in a spiritual resurrection could not have made his dead body disappear.

A dead body in a tomb does not vanish because of belief/non-belief.

A resurrection simply means a dead body came back to life.

If people saw the dead body of Jesus in a tomb it would remain there until it rotted or was physical removed.

Christian writers of antiquity who used the NT claimed Jesus came back to life after he was dead for three days.
I don't think you can blame any of the posters here that the explanation makes little sense. I see different ideas in Paul's letters and the gospels, ideas that don't always gel with each other. From 1 Cor, it seems pretty obvious that Paul's idea is that, on resurrection, your old body, if still present, goes *poof* and you get a new perfect one, made from completely new material. This idea is also still present in the gospels, as some of the people who were very close to Jesus during his life are reported to not recognize him. They recognize him by his deeds and sayings, not by his looks. I assume that this story was met by skepticism from much of the audience, and "doubting Thomas" came to the rescue. This in turn led to a change in the perception of what resurrection actually means, because now you had the resurrection of the old body with all its blemishes and flaws. Which in turn brings lots of new problems, like what happens when cremated or otherwise severely injured during death.

I doubt the church cares much though, otherwise they wouldn't allow their dead saints to be peddled piecemeal across the continents, or the long tradition of burying the hearts of people in different places than the rest of their bodies.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by GakuseiDon » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:05 am

Ulan wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:35 am
This in turn led to a change in the perception of what resurrection actually means, because now you had the resurrection of the old body with all its blemishes and flaws. Which in turn brings lots of new problems, like what happens when cremated or otherwise severely injured during death.

I doubt the church cares much though, otherwise they wouldn't allow their dead saints to be peddled piecemeal across the continents, or the long tradition of burying the hearts of people in different places than the rest of their bodies.
It occupied the minds of some early Christians, though, since a resurrection of the flesh was against pagan and heretical notions. Tertullian wrote in his "On the resurrection of the flesh":
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ian16.html

Now you are a shrewd man, no doubt: will you then persuade yourself, that after this flesh has been withdrawn from sight, and touch, and memory, it can never be rehabilitated from corruption to integrity, from a shattered to a solid State, from an empty to a full condition, from nothing at all to something--the devouring fires, and the waters of the sea, and the maws of beasts, and the crops of birds and the stomachs of fishes, and time's own great paunch itself of course yielding it all up again? Shall the same flesh which has fallen to decay be so expected to recover, as that the lame, and the one-eyed, and the blind, and the leper, and the palsied shall come back again, although there can be no pleasure in returning to their old condition? Or shall they be whole, and so have to fear exposure to such sufferings? What, in that case, (must we say) of the consequences of resuming the flesh? Will it again be subject to all its present wants, especially meats and drinks? Shall we have with our lungs to float (in air or water), and suffer pain in our bowels, and with organs of shame to feel no shame, and with all our limbs to toil and labour? Must there again be ulcers, and wounds, and fever, and gout, and once more the wishing to die?

It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

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