Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
hakeem
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by hakeem »

Ulan wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:10 pm
I have quoted 1 Corinthians directly at you:
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.
50 ... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...
I have also quoted directly from the NT.

The NT claims numerous persons including Jesus were physically raised from the dead.

There is no such thing and never have been a spiritual resurrection of a real dead body.

If it is true Jesus actually lived and died then he could not have spiritually resurrected nor would his dead body disappear.
Ulan wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:10 pm
The part in John 20:
19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”

He came through the locked doors.

The very same gJohn claimed or implied the resurrected Jesus was not a spirit.

John 20.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
The Jesus story in gJohn is that his Jesus was God Creator, the Logos, was made flesh who actually lived, died and physically came back to life.


Ulan wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:10 pm
To recognize the "last Adam", the one Paul describes as "life-giving spirit", as Jesus, you have to know a bit about the Bible. Many Bible translations will mention that in a commentary though.

It's funny that you try to tell me that those texts you quoted contradict me. They contradict other parts of the same text. Which is something that should make you think.
I quoted directly from Galatians. Jesus in Galatians was God's son made of a woman. In Corinthians 1 Jesus dead body came back to life on the third day.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

1 Corinthians 153-:4
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scripture
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.


Christian writers of antiquity who used gJohn and the Epistles also argued NT Jesus physically resurrected.

In fact, the NT is the Canon of the Church which state that their Jesus dead body came back to life after three days.
Ulan
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Ulan »

Nothing what you say contradicts me (which was your claim). What's your point?
hakeem
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by hakeem »

Ulan wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:56 am Nothing what you say contradicts me (which was your claim). What's your point?
You yourself have already admitted NT texts are contradictory.
Ulan wrote: Of course the NT texts have parts that contradict other parts of the same texts.......
Ulan
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Ulan »

Indeed. I said that already before your first answer to me. That's why I ask where you say anything that contradicts me. You don't, but you make that claim anyway.
hakeem
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by hakeem »

Ulan wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:33 am Indeed. I said that already before your first answer to me. That's why I ask where you say anything that contradicts me. You don't, but you make that claim anyway.
And what is even more bizarre even after admitting NT texts are contradiction you used a most fictional account to argue a resurrected Jesus was a spirit because he walked through locked doors when it is shown in the very story, in the very chapter, that the resurrected character in gJohn's fable claimed or implied he came back to life with a human body and was recognized as human by his supposed disciples.
Ulan
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Ulan »

hakeem wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:22 am
Ulan wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:33 am Indeed. I said that already before your first answer to me. That's why I ask where you say anything that contradicts me. You don't, but you make that claim anyway.
And what is even more bizarre even after admitting NT texts are contradiction you used a most fictional account to argue a resurrected Jesus was a spirit because he walked through locked doors when it is shown in the very story, in the very chapter, that the resurrected character in gJohn's fable claimed or implied he came back to life with a human body and was recognized as human by his supposed disciples.
I guess the other gentlemen chiming in and warning me from you were correct. The only thing that is bizarre here is your kind of reasoning. I didn't "admit" anything. I mentioned the "doubting Thomas" episode already before you mentioned it. You even quoted the "doubting Thomas" episode at me although I mentioned it in the quote of my post you were answering to. That's just stupid.

If you don't like the gJohn example (granted, John may have wanted to paint Jesus as a distinguished burglar :D ), then you still have Corinthians, where Paul makes it very clear that resurrection uses a spiritual body and Jesus is a spirit.

You seem not to be able to distinguish the author from the messenger. If you don't come to your senses, I'll have to decide to not answer your posts any longer, because that's a waste of time.
hakeem
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by hakeem »

Ulan wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:40 am
hakeem wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:22 am
Ulan wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:33 am Indeed. I said that already before your first answer to me. That's why I ask where you say anything that contradicts me. You don't, but you make that claim anyway.
And what is even more bizarre even after admitting NT texts are contradiction you used a most fictional account to argue a resurrected Jesus was a spirit because he walked through locked doors when it is shown in the very story, in the very chapter, that the resurrected character in gJohn's fable claimed or implied he came back to life with a human body and was recognized as human by his supposed disciples.
I guess the other gentlemen chiming in and warning me from you were correct. The only thing that is bizarre here is your kind of reasoning. I didn't "admit" anything. I mentioned the "doubting Thomas" episode already before you mentioned it. You even quoted the "doubting Thomas" episode at me although I mentioned it in the quote of my post you were answering to. That's just stupid.
If you don't like the gJohn example (granted, John may have wanted to paint Jesus as a distinguished burglar :D ), then you still have Corinthians, where Paul makes it very clear that resurrection uses a spiritual body and Jesus is a spirit.If you don't like the gJohn example (granted, John may have wanted to paint Jesus as a distinguished burglar :D ), then you still have Corinthians, where Paul makes it very clear that resurrection uses a spiritual body and Jesus is a spirit.

You did admit NT texts were contradictory.

It is also shown in the fables of John 20 that the character called Thomas did accept the resurrected Jesus was human after seeing him and examining his hands and side..

John 20.
7 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Also In the fiction story of John 1 it is claimed Jesus was God Creator who was made flesh.


John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The NT including gJohn and the Epistles support the teaching of the Church that Jesus was God who came down from heaven, lived on earth as a human and after he was crucified his dead body physically came back to life on the third day.
Ulan
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Ulan »

I'm not sure whether it's a language issue or some deficit in the cognitive ability department, but I'll call it a day here.
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DCHindley
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by DCHindley »

nightshadetwine wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:30 pm
DCHindley wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:21 pm Shouldn't we make a distinction between the doctrines about the resurrection body in A) the canonical Gospels, B) in Acts, and C) the Pauline letters (maybe even further distinguish between letters to churches and letters to individuals)?
Some scholars like James Tabor think that Paul believed the physical body dies and decomposes(doesn't rise) and the spirit is "reclothed" with a spiritual body while the gospel writers portray the resurrection as the physical body transforming into a spiritual body. https://jamestabor.com/resurrection-of- ... -new-body/ and https://jamestabor.com/why-people-are-c ... -the-dead/

He says:
Paul makes clear that in Christian resurrection the body is left behind like an old change of clothing, to turn to the dust, and the spirit is “reclothed” with a new spiritual body. He compares the physical body to a temporary tent, and the new body is a permanent house (2 Corinthians 5:1-5). He even throws in a polemic against the Greek Platonic view of the “unclothed” or disembodied immortal soul—he says our desire is not to be naked, which is the state of death before resurrection, but to be clothed again!
I guess opinions varied between people in ancient times. Also, depending on ones experiences and learning, any one person's opinions may change over time. Paul might have known the tent-making trade inside and out, and I imagine he was good enough to take jobs all across the regions of Achaia, Asia Minor, Syria and points south.

I have previously speculated that Paul was a client to he household of a wealthy Herodian patron, and may have had more than one patron of this kind. Based on his range of travel, I'd suggest that his patrons might be:

1) Agrippa I, King of Batanaea AD 37–41, King of Galilee AD 40–41, King of all Judaea AD 41–44;

2) Herod of Chalcis, (King of Chalcis) AD ??–48;

3) Agrippa II, Tetrarch of Chalcis AD 48–53, King of Batanaea AD 53–100;

4) Aristobulus of Chalcis, King of Armenia Minor AD 55-72, Tetrarch of Chalcis AD 57-92.

DCH (lunch over boss)
Secret Alias
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Re: Fictional Jesus Synthesis

Post by Secret Alias »

I'm not sure whether it's a language issue or some deficit in the cognitive ability department, but I'll call it a day here.
aa, doing crazy since 2007.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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