Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

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Giuseppe
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Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by Giuseppe »

Plato, Symposium:

[203a] and incantations, and all soothsaying and sorcery. God with man does not mingle: but the spiritual is the means of all society and converse of men with gods and of gods with men, whether waking or asleep. Whosoever has skill in these affairs is a spiritual man to have it in other matters, as in common arts and crafts, is for the mechanical. Many and multifarious are these spirits, and one of them is Love.’

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ion%3D203a

The Greek version is the following:

[203α] καὶ τὰς ἐπῳδὰς καὶ τὴν μαντείαν πᾶσαν καὶ γοητείαν. θεὸς δὲ ἀνθρώπῳ οὐ μείγνυται, ἀλλὰ διὰ τούτου πᾶσά ἐστιν ἡ ὁμιλία καὶ ἡ διάλεκτος θεοῖς πρὸς ἀνθρώπους, καὶ ἐγρηγορόσι καὶ καθεύδουσι: καὶ ὁ μὲν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα σοφὸς δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ, ὁ δὲ ἄλλο τι σοφὸς ὢν ἢ περὶ τέχνας ἢ χειρουργίας τινὰς βάναυσος. οὗτοι δὴ οἱ δαίμονες πολλοὶ καὶ παντοδαποί εἰσιν, εἷς δὲ τούτων ἐστὶ καὶ ὁ Ἔρως.

I have another Italian translation of the last phrase that goes someway so:

Who is wise in all these things is a man who has part of the divine. Who is in something else, in the arts or in manual crafts, is just a craftsman


Which translation is more correct?

If that given by me, then the suggestion is that “Mark” derived from there the idea that the people of Nazareth saw only a carpenter and hence a mere demiurge (clues of separationism in action, here).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:18 amThe Greek version is the following:

[203α] καὶ τὰς ἐπῳδὰς καὶ τὴν μαντείαν πᾶσαν καὶ γοητείαν. θεὸς δὲ ἀνθρώπῳ οὐ μείγνυται, ἀλλὰ διὰ τούτου πᾶσά ἐστιν ἡ ὁμιλία καὶ ἡ διάλεκτος θεοῖς πρὸς ἀνθρώπους, καὶ ἐγρηγορόσι καὶ καθεύδουσι: καὶ ὁ μὲν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα σοφὸς δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ, ὁ δὲ ἄλλο τι σοφὸς ὢν ἢ περὶ τέχνας ἢ χειρουργίας τινὰς βάναυσος. οὗτοι δὴ οἱ δαίμονες πολλοὶ καὶ παντοδαποί εἰσιν, εἷς δὲ τούτων ἐστὶ καὶ ὁ Ἔρως.
"And the one who is wise concerning such things is a spiritual man, but the one being wise in some other way or concerning crafts or certain handiworks is an artisan." βάναυσος ("artisan," "craftsman") is often a pejorative: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... a%2Fnausos, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banausos. Hence the dehumanizing translation of "mechanical" in of the versions given in the OP and the delimiting modifier "just" in the other.
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Re: Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by Secret Alias »

cf Celsus's comments that Christians have MISUNDERSTOOD Plato when they depreciate the Demiurge.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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DCHindley
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Re: Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:08 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:18 amThe Greek version is the following:

[203α] καὶ τὰς ἐπῳδὰς καὶ τὴν μαντείαν πᾶσαν καὶ γοητείαν. θεὸς δὲ ἀνθρώπῳ οὐ μείγνυται, ἀλλὰ διὰ τούτου πᾶσά ἐστιν ἡ ὁμιλία καὶ ἡ διάλεκτος θεοῖς πρὸς ἀνθρώπους, καὶ ἐγρηγορόσι καὶ καθεύδουσι: καὶ ὁ μὲν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα σοφὸς δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ, ὁ δὲ ἄλλο τι σοφὸς ὢν ἢ περὶ τέχνας ἢ χειρουργίας τινὰς βάναυσος. οὗτοι δὴ οἱ δαίμονες πολλοὶ καὶ παντοδαποί εἰσιν, εἷς δὲ τούτων ἐστὶ καὶ ὁ Ἔρως.
"And the one who is wise concerning such things is a spiritual man, but the one being wise in some other way or concerning crafts or certain handiworks is an artisan." βάναυσος ("artisan," "craftsman") is often a pejorative: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... a%2Fnausos, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banausos. Hence the dehumanizing translation of "mechanical" in of the versions given in the OP and the delimiting modifier "just" in the other.
I'm just kinda wonderin' about that phrase δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ (daimonias aner), which I think means "that man is possessed by the divine." Is "spiritual," then, strong enough?

But on the other hand, wasn't one of Plato's divine principals the "Craftsman"? That would not be pejorative. But I'm not sure whether we are dealing with different words (δημιουργός/demiourgos & βάναυσος/banausos) with similar meanings. Plato makes use of both terms, preferring the former to the latter, but probably not always using them as equivalents.

DCH
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Re: Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:50 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:08 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:18 amThe Greek version is the following:

[203α] καὶ τὰς ἐπῳδὰς καὶ τὴν μαντείαν πᾶσαν καὶ γοητείαν. θεὸς δὲ ἀνθρώπῳ οὐ μείγνυται, ἀλλὰ διὰ τούτου πᾶσά ἐστιν ἡ ὁμιλία καὶ ἡ διάλεκτος θεοῖς πρὸς ἀνθρώπους, καὶ ἐγρηγορόσι καὶ καθεύδουσι: καὶ ὁ μὲν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα σοφὸς δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ, ὁ δὲ ἄλλο τι σοφὸς ὢν ἢ περὶ τέχνας ἢ χειρουργίας τινὰς βάναυσος. οὗτοι δὴ οἱ δαίμονες πολλοὶ καὶ παντοδαποί εἰσιν, εἷς δὲ τούτων ἐστὶ καὶ ὁ Ἔρως.
"And the one who is wise concerning such things is a spiritual man, but the one being wise in some other way or concerning crafts or certain handiworks is an artisan." βάναυσος ("artisan," "craftsman") is often a pejorative: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... a%2Fnausos, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banausos. Hence the dehumanizing translation of "mechanical" in of the versions given in the OP and the delimiting modifier "just" in the other.
I'm just kinda wonderin' about that phrase δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ (daimonias aner), which I think means "that man is possessed by the divine." Is "spiritual," then, strong enough?
"Divine" may be better, though it can also mean "miraculous," in the sense that a δαίμων is powerful in such ways. The main thing is to avoid, in this case, using the cognate "demonic" or some such, which is completely in the wrong direction for this.
But on the other hand, wasn't one of Plato's divine principals the "Craftsman"? That would not be pejorative.
But that was τεχνίτης, I think, or maybe a variation of it. Different word, different possible set of connotations.
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Re: Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by outhouse »

Context of tekton as used, in this time and place, by Markan authors, was that of displaced agrarian peasants forced off their lands many due to not being able to pay their rent/lease/taxes, and ended up doing what they could by hand on a day to day basis. They are said to live a life below that of the common peasant. Very similar to the Aramaic Galilean fishermen in context. Low life's on the outside of society so to speak.
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Re: Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:31 am
DCHindley wrote: Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:50 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:08 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:18 amThe Greek version is the following:

[203α] καὶ τὰς ἐπῳδὰς καὶ τὴν μαντείαν πᾶσαν καὶ γοητείαν. θεὸς δὲ ἀνθρώπῳ οὐ μείγνυται, ἀλλὰ διὰ τούτου πᾶσά ἐστιν ἡ ὁμιλία καὶ ἡ διάλεκτος θεοῖς πρὸς ἀνθρώπους, καὶ ἐγρηγορόσι καὶ καθεύδουσι: καὶ ὁ μὲν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα σοφὸς δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ, ὁ δὲ ἄλλο τι σοφὸς ὢν ἢ περὶ τέχνας ἢ χειρουργίας τινὰς βάναυσος. οὗτοι δὴ οἱ δαίμονες πολλοὶ καὶ παντοδαποί εἰσιν, εἷς δὲ τούτων ἐστὶ καὶ ὁ Ἔρως.
"And the one who is wise concerning such things is a spiritual man, but the one being wise in some other way or concerning crafts or certain handiworks is an artisan." βάναυσος ("artisan," "craftsman") is often a pejorative: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... a%2Fnausos, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banausos. Hence the dehumanizing translation of "mechanical" in of the versions given in the OP and the delimiting modifier "just" in the other.
I'm just kinda wonderin' about that phrase δαιμόνιος ἀνήρ (daimonias aner), which I think means "that man is possessed by the divine." Is "spiritual," then, strong enough?
"Divine" may be better, though it can also mean "miraculous," in the sense that a δαίμων is powerful in such ways. The main thing is to avoid, in this case, using the cognate "demonic" or some such, which is completely in the wrong direction for this.
But on the other hand, wasn't one of Plato's divine principals the "Craftsman"? That would not be pejorative.
But that was τεχνίτης, I think, or maybe a variation of it. Different word, different possible set of connotations.
Ben,

I looked into this, and the word τεχνίτης (technites) is used 3 times in Plato's works (Sophist 219a; Cleitophon 409b; Alcibiades 2 145e), and none have anything to do with the function of a Demiurge as a craftsman, which is not introduced until Plato's later work the Timaeus, where the word used is δημιουργός (demiourgos). The word used in the Symposium is βάναυσος (banausos) not δημιουργός. All three words, I concede, refer to a craftsman, an artisan.

Anyone who has EVER worked in factories or knows first hand how manufacturing works knows that the craftsman takes raw material, files or grinds it, drills it, uses molds or dies and jigs to form it. By the time Plato reached old age, he seems to have reasoned that the files, drills, molds, dies and jigs correspond to his Ideal Forms, the raw materials were unformed matter generated by the One, so someone had to do all that fashioning, and he came up with the concept of a Demiurge. It was later Gnostics who started to use the term for the creator of matter.

Since this dialogue was written before the Timaeus, I'd have to answer my own question and say that there is no intent to introduce tension between a god-possessed "man" (say as someone associated with the One) and a divine Craftsman, although I think he may have intended to suggest that a man who does the good things is more in tune with the One than a "mere" craftsman might be.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus Carpenter “read” in the Platon's Symposium?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:05 pmI looked into this, and the word τεχνίτης (technites) is used 3 times in Plato's works (Sophist 219a; Cleitophon 409b; Alcibiades 2 145e), and none have anything to do with the function of a Demiurge as a craftsman, which is not introduced until Plato's later work the Timaeus, where the word used is δημιουργός (demiourgos). The word used in the Symposium is βάναυσος (banausos) not δημιουργός.
Thanks. I stand corrected.
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