Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

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DCHindley
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by DCHindley »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:43 am
DCHindley wrote: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:32 amSo, practically speaking, he was functioning as a prophet, but not as someone looking far into the future, but speaking right at the point where god had ordained that gentiles and Judeans were brothers in faith, and the blessed future age would be inherited equally by all the faithful.
For Paul, the future was now; the kingdom was here, the final consummation less than a lifetime away.
Sort of like Romans:
16:25a Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my good news and preaching
25b [...],
25c according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages

26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith --

27a [...]

27b to (God) be the glory for evermore!
This has the passages that I identify, wrongly of course, chopped out as interpolations.* He simply sees the dawning of a new age in which all good people (by faith in YHWH power) get to share equally in a blessed renewed earth. Get out the crystals, pyramids and put the vinyl LP with the song "Age of Aquarius" on the turntable [what's that?] ...

But my proposed Redactor also thinks Jesus and his death (which I do not doubt was a real event) was predicted by the scriptures. Jesus was in fact a divine figure called "Christ" commissioned by God the Father to make a vicarious atoning death for mankind, only recently revealed in this current age. Who knew? That is clearly "gnostic" thinking.

DCH

* For the curious, the omitted words are 25b of Jesus Christ, 27a to the only wise God through Jesus Christ
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Irish1975 wrote: Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:37 pm Galatians 1:15-16 seems really puzzling and important:
But when it pleased God...to reveal his son in me (apocalypsai ton huion autou en emoi), that I might preach him among the gentiles...
For years I had not noticed this, since RSV and NRSV perversely translate the prepositional phrase en emoi as "to me," as if this were no different from altering "brothers" to "brothers and sisters."

What to make of it? I consulted various commentaries, and noticed that conservative authors sometimes try to explain it away by a fanciful theory of the [en + dative] construction, or by assimilating the usage to the subsequent phrase "among the gentiles," as if that clarified anything.
Ah, nothing beats the good old god-inspired King James which has always translated it correctly through its various iterations as "in me".

The UBS Translators' Handbook comments:
To reveal his Son to me is literally “to reveal his Son in (or by) me.” Does this mean “to reveal his Son to others, by means of me” or “to reveal his Son to me”? While the first of these is possible (a similar construction occurs in 1.24), yet on the basis of the total context and Paul’s line of argument, the second alternative is more acceptable. The burden of this passage is how Paul received the gospel, not how he proclaimed it. TEV makes this latter meaning clear (so also NAB and RSV). Most other translations keep the construction “in me,” and NEB combines the two ideas (“reveal his Son to me and through me”).

It would be possible to render to reveal his Son to me as simply “to show me his Son” or “to cause me to see his Son,” but this would scarcely do justice to the fuller implications of the revelation. Some translators prefer an expression meaning “to cause me to know who his Son really is,” “to show me who his Son really is,” or even “to let me see what I could not see before—who his Son really is.”
Alan Segal in Paul the Convert understands the words to indicate a spiritual union with God's or Christ's heavenly image.
Alternatively, Paul can say, as he does in Gal. 1:16 that "God was pleased to reveal His Son in me [en emoi]." This is not a simple dative but refers to his having received in him the Spirit, in his case through his conversion. Being in Christ in fact appears to mean being united with Christ's heavenly image. The same, however, is available to all Christians through baptism. This is not strange since apocalyptic and mystical Judaism also promoted tevilah, ritual immersion or baptism, as the central purification ritual preparing for the ascent into God's presence. The Jewish ritual of purification for coming into the divine presence and proselyte baptism has been transformed by Paul's community into a single rite of passage, though it does not thereby lose its relationship to its source. Dying and being resurrected along with Christ in baptism is the beginning of the process by which the believer gains the same image of God, his eikön, which was made known to humanity when Jesus became the son of man—the human figure in heaven who brings judgment in the apocalypse described by Daniel. (p. 64)
Hans Dieter Betz in his commentary on Galatians discusses the questions arising over that interesting word "in":
More descriptively than in 1:1, 12 Paul claims that his vocation141 took the form of a revelation of Christ: God called him by “revealing his son” (άποκαλΰφαι τον υιόν αύτοΰ) in him.142 The language which Paul uses at this point raises difficult questions and has caused much speculation.

We do not know why Paul here introduces the christological title “Son of God” (ο υίός τοΰ öeoö). Does this indicate that Paul cites a traditional phrase? 143 Is the title “Son of God” firmly attached to accounts of visions of Christ? At any rate, the title here refers to the crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ who is also the present Christ, and whose presence is identical with the content of the Pauline gospel.144

Furthermore, which form of revelation Paul has in mind is unclear. The term αποκαλύπτω (“reveal”) can mean many things.145 Most commentators interpret the concept in analogy to 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8, where Paul also talks about his revelation. But in 1 Corinthians the terminology is different. In 1 Cor 9: 1 (“Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?”) and 15:8 (“he [sc. Christ] appeared also to me”), the terms are forms of 6pdv (“see”), once active (9:1) and once passive (15:8). Both suggest external visions rather than internal experiences.146

This raises the other question of how to interpret “in me” (eV e’/xoi). Does this refer to a “mystical” experience147 or is the reference simply equal to a dative (= “to me”) ?148 The “mystical” interpretation once had many supporters, but has nowadays fallen into disrepute. Also, the interpretation as a dative makes it easier to reconcile Gal 1:16 with 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8 and the accounts in Acts (9:1-19; 22:3-16; 26:9-18).149

But we must avoid deciding the matter by way of outside influences or apologetic interests. We should not suppose that Paul feels he contradicts himself in Gal 1:16 and 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8. Apparently for him the two forms of visions (external and internal) are not as distinct as they may be for some commentators. Paul can use a variety of concepts and languages when he describes his vocation, which in any case he does only rarely.

There are indications, however, that we should take his words seriously. The “in me” corresponds to Gal 2 : 20 (“Christ. . . lives in me”)150 and 4:6 (“God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts”).151

Paul does not explain how the three passages are related to each other, but we may assume that they complement each other. This would mean that Paul’s experience was ecstatic in nature, and that in the course of this ecstasy he had a vision (whether external or internal or both— “Ido not know, God knows” [cf. 2 Cor 12:2,3]). This interpretation is supported by the debate about Paul’s vision in the ps.-Clem. Horn. 17. 13-19.152
Footnote 146:
146 The distinctions between the two forms of vision have been pointed out especially by Alfred Wikenhauser, Die Christusmystik des Apostels Paulus (Freiburg: Herder, 21956) 88-90; idem, Pauline Mysticism : Christ in the Mystical Teaching of St. Paul (New York: Herder, 1960) 134-36; Albert Schweitzer, The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle (New York: Macmillan, 1956) passim; Lietzmann, pp. 7-8; Schlier, p. 55. See also Ernst Benz, Die Vision (Stuttgart: Klett, 1969).
And Engberg-Pedersen, Paul and the Stoics, should not be left out of the discussion since he sees analogous concepts with Stoicism:
In view of other passages in the letters (e.g. Gal 1:16; z Cor 4:6), it is even likely that he is referring to some kind of direct vision. But his interest in recounting this experience here is not just ‘personal’ or ‘psychological’ as if he were merely telling about his own experience to whoever might be interested in that. Rather, he is using his own case as a model for a kind of normative change and transfer that has universal application (as he claims): the change from a normative self-understanding tied to ordinary natural and social goods to be acquired by the individual for him- or herself—to one that, as it were, places the individual outside him- or herself. Such a change apparently requires that one is, as it were, ‘struck’ by something which one experiences as having an ‘overpowering’ character in relation to one’s previous self. But that is not at all special to Paul. The Stoics would have agreed.33 (p. 95)
and
1:16 (‘revealing his son in me’) may stand as a headline for what Paul aims to say. It is not very specific. Still, even though the sense of the preposition en (‘in’) in Paul’s Greek is notoriously somewhat fluid, it seems certain that he did not merely wish to say here that Christ was revealed to him. In some sense Christ was revealed in him.34 The same idea is taken up in 2:19-20 when he says: I no longer live, but Christ lives in me’. But this passage gives us far more to go on. First, the fact that Paul speaks not just in the first person singular but with a marked egö ('I’) already shows that he is working with the kind of heightened awareness of the ‘self’ which goes with any kind of reflection on a person’s own identity. . . . .

In other words, the way in which he has come to ‘live for God’ is by obtaining a certain relationship with Christ.35 In his description of this he no longer uses the terminology of ‘my-living-/or’. Instead the claim is the even stronger one that 'I' am altogether dead and Christ lives—in ‘me’. We may certainly speak here of some form of ‘participation’. But what should that mean? And is the term sufficiently strong? ‘Mysticism’, then? But what is that? A far better translation—on the supposition that we are looking for that kind of thing—is to see Paul as talking of self-identification. The I will be dead in the sense that there is nothing whatever in the individual person whose self-reflection is here being described with which he wishes to identify normatively. Literally, of course, he is not dead. But as normatively seen by himself, he no longer is that individual person (Paul himself with all his individualizing traits). That person is normatively ‘dead’ and gone. He has no value for Paul. Instead, Christ lives ‘in me’. That is, Paul sees and identifies himself normatively as nothing but a ‘Christ person’.

(pp. 146, 147)
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Irish1975
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by Irish1975 »

Very interesting commentary, Neil, thanks.

The son of God revealed in Paul is both active and transformative, reversing his prior blindness and hostility towards "the church of God" (by no means to be assumed identical with 'Christians' or even followers of HJ), but then also driving him towards the evangelization of the gentile world. It's impossible to uncover exactly what the "in me" experience was for Paul the individual, apart from the way he preaches it to others in his role as church founder. But it must have been something remarkable. It drove him into "Arabia," where he may have had the prototypical prophet sojourn in the wilderness experience.
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by iskander »

John
Chapter 10:30,I and my Father are one.
John 10:30 Context

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-10-30/


Paul- --who was a very religious man--- may have explained his conversion as in John 10:22-33: he became a follower of God; not the God of Moses, but the God of Jesus.
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Irish1975 wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:47 am .... in his role as church founder. But it must have been something remarkable. It drove him into "Arabia," where he may have had the prototypical prophet sojourn in the wilderness experience.
Founder or jumper-on-band-wagon? I find James Hanges' sociological study makes a lot of sense: https://vridar.org/category/biblical-st ... nges-paul/ - The spirit movement had already taken hold in the Greek world and Paul found a way to rationalize the events and take the lead. The evidence in Galatians indicates that the Arabian sojourn was meant to present Paul in the train of Moses and Elijah. Whether it was also a historical trip we have no way of confirming.
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iskander
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by iskander »

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ga ... Chapter-1/
Gal.1:16 (KJV)


To reveal his Son in me : Paul understood that if the mosaic law is no longer the means of redemption.

that I might preach him among the heathen: then the gospel may be offered freely to the Gentiles .

immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood : Paul saw himself as a messenger of God .
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Irish1975
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by Irish1975 »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:52 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:47 am .... in his role as church founder. But it must have been something remarkable. It drove him into "Arabia," where he may have had the prototypical prophet sojourn in the wilderness experience.
Founder or jumper-on-band-wagon? I find James Hanges' sociological study makes a lot of sense: https://vridar.org/category/biblical-st ... nges-paul/ - The spirit movement had already taken hold in the Greek world and Paul found a way to rationalize the events and take the lead. The evidence in Galatians indicates that the Arabian sojourn was meant to present Paul in the train of Moses and Elijah. Whether it was also a historical trip we have no way of confirming.
It does seem that Paul got swept into an already existing "spirit movement." About that, I think Stevan Davies is spot on in his recent book where he argues that the "500 brothers" with whom Paul shared a sighting of the risen lord is definite evidence that Paul, Peter, and James originally knew each other through some sort of spirit cult.

By "church founder," I'm referring to things like the eucharist, the gospel idea, the new covenant idea, the baptism-into-Christ's-death idea, and many other nuts and bolts of the Christian religion that appear informally in Paul's epistles but later hardened into theology through the writing of the gospels and the work of the 2nd century bishops.

Thanks for the link to Hanges, I'll have to check that out.
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by iskander »

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24 And they glorified God in me.


Jesus was the "founder" of the movement and the apostles already had a following before the conversion of Paul.
Paul influence was to include the entire humanity in the redemption plan and make the atoning death a single, unique, and terminating event. His influence was within the Jewish tradition e.g.

Image
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1828&p=89792#p89792

And

The imposition of hands on the sacrificial animal transfer the sins of the guilty sinner to the innocent animal.
Verbal confession of sins is associated with the imposition of hands .


Image
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2173
iskander
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by iskander »

Douay-Rheims Bible + Challoner Notes
Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians Chapter 1
16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles, immediately I condescended not to flesh and blood.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/55001.htm
The Douay–Rheims Bible (pronounced /ˌduːeɪ/ or /ˌdaʊ.eɪ ˈriːmz/[1]) (also known as the Rheims–Douai Bible or Douai Bible, and abbreviated as D–R and DRB) is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English made by members of the English College, Douai, in the service of the Catholic Church.[2] The New Testament portion was published in Reims, France, in 1582,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay%E2% ... eims_Bible
**********************
The Tyndale Bible usually refers to the translations of various books of the Bible by William Tyndale in the 1500s. His work is credited with being the first English translation from the original Hebrew and Greek texts and the first English biblical translation that was mass-produced as a result of new advances in the art of printing.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/tyn/
Galatians
16 forto declare his sonne by me that I shuld preache him amonge the hethen: immediatly I comened not of the matter with flesshe and bloud

**************************

Gal.1
16 to reveal his son to me.(d)...
d : Gk in me
The New Oxford Annotated Bible

********************
Galatians, by J. Louis Martyn
1:16 to reveal his son to me...

to me: a long explanation as to the choice of "to" over "in".
*******************
"in, to, or by" each one explains adequately the purpose of God's direct intervention in human affairs .
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Irish1975
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Re: Revealing the son in Paul (Galatians 1:16)

Post by Irish1975 »

iskander wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 am Douay-Rheims Bible + Challoner Notes
Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Galatians Chapter 1
16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles, immediately I condescended not to flesh and blood.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/55001.htm
The Douay–Rheims Bible (pronounced /ˌduːeɪ/ or /ˌdaʊ.eɪ ˈriːmz/[1]) (also known as the Rheims–Douai Bible or Douai Bible, and abbreviated as D–R and DRB) is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English made by members of the English College, Douai, in the service of the Catholic Church.[2] The New Testament portion was published in Reims, France, in 1582,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay%E2% ... eims_Bible
**********************
The Tyndale Bible usually refers to the translations of various books of the Bible by William Tyndale in the 1500s. His work is credited with being the first English translation from the original Hebrew and Greek texts and the first English biblical translation that was mass-produced as a result of new advances in the art of printing.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/tyn/
Galatians
16 forto declare his sonne by me that I shuld preache him amonge the hethen: immediatly I comened not of the matter with flesshe and bloud

**************************

Gal.1
16 to reveal his son to me.(d)...
d : Gk in me
The New Oxford Annotated Bible

********************
Galatians, by J. Louis Martyn
1:16 to reveal his son to me...

to me: a long explanation as to the choice of "to" over "in".
*******************
"in, to, or by" each one explains adequately the purpose of God's direct intervention in human affairs .
It seems to me that these creative translations of a very simple expression in Greek (in + dative) betray the anxiety of orthodox/conventional assumptions about Christian origins, as does your interpretation of them. That contemporary scholars such as Martyn and Ehrman (who translates "to me" in his latest book, the Triumph of Christianity) perpetuate the fraud is just further evidence of how deep the delusion goes.

Paul's conversion had nothing to do with any historical Jesus, nor with what might supposedly have been preached to Paul by Peter and James. The plain text of Galatians says it all.
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