Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

Post by Secret Alias »

Soul crushing like the Jewish defeat in 70 CE which preceded Mark's composition. Judging by Josephus's account the Jews were lacking a leader to Marshall the resistance. Maybe there is a contemporary political statement in there too.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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Also consider that the Valentinian myth of Against the Valentinians is VERY similar to the Marcionite metanoia of the Demiurge in Eznik of Kolb
The soul-like and bodily Christ suffered to illustrate the experience of the higher Christ who was stretched on Cross, otherwise known as
Horos, when he shaped Achamoth in essence, though not in intelligible form. In such a way everything becomes an illustration or image; even, obviously, these Christians themselves are imaginary.

Meanwhile, the Demiurge is still ignorant of all this. Even though he is supposed to proclaim these matters through the prophets, he is not aware of the true meaning of this task of his, because the Valentinians allot the prophets' patronage to three entities: Achamoth, her seed, the Demiurge. Anyway, when he has heard of Saviour's approach, he runs to meet him crying "Hail!" He came with his entire force (the symbol for this is the centurion in the gospel), and when he was enlightened by Saviour concerning everything, he discovered his own prospects, namely that he would succeed to his mother's office. Hereafter he administers the world confidently, especially for the sake of protecting the church as long as necessary.
The agreement between Valentinians and Marcionites strengthens the argument that this is a very archaic interpretation rather than marginalia. Also the idea that the crucified Christ was an emblem or sign is significant given the strange emphasis of crucified Jews in Josephus's account of the Jewish War that follows this incident. Given Against the Jews strange idea of making the 7 weeks follow the 62 (rather than precede) and given the original dating of the crucifixion 'in real time' at 20 - 21 CE in various early sources including the Acts of Pilate there could have been a situation where a 'parallel historical' situation existed between events at the 62 and the 69 weeks - i.e. that the crucified Jews were 'images' or 'reminders' of the killed and disappearing messiah perhaps interpreted in terms of yet another mirror in heaven.

Compare the myth in Eznik:
And, they say, the Good God and Stranger, who was residing in the third heaven, saw that between these two deceivers, the Lord of creatures and Matter, so many people had been lost and tortured, and it grieved him because of their having fallen into fire and their having been tortured.

He sent his Son to redeem them and 'to take on the likeness of a slave and to come into being in the form of man' [Phil 2:7] in the midst of the sons of the God of the Law. 'Heal' he said 'their lepers and give life to their dead and open their blind and make very great healings as a gift to them, so that the Lord of creatures might see you and be jealous and raise you on a cross.'

'And then having become dead you will descend into the Harsh (or, Hell) and you will raise them thence because it is not customary for the Harsh to accept life into its midst. And for the same reason you will go up to the cross so that you might resemble the dead and so that you might open the mouth of Hell to take you and enter into the middle of it and empty it.'

And when he had raised him on a cross, they say, he descended into the Harsh and emptied it. And having raised the souls from the middle of it he led them into the third heaven, to his Father.

And the Lord of creatures having become angry, in his anger he rent his robe and the curtain of of his temple. And he darkened his sun and he clothed his world in umber. And in his affliction he dwelt in mourning. Then when Jesus descended a second time in the form of his divinity to the Lord of creatures, he brought a lawsuit against him on account of his death.

And when the Lord of the world saw that divinity of Jesus, he discovered that another God apart from himself existed. And Jesus said to him, 'I am in litigation with you, and let no one judge between us, but the laws that you wrote.'

And when they had placed the Law in the middle, Jesus said to him "Did you not write in your Law, 'Whoever will murder he will die, (cf Num 35.30 - 34)?' and 'Whoever sheds the blood of a righteous one, his blood will be shed (Gen 9:6)?'" And he said, 'Yes, I wrote."

And Jesus said to him "So give yourself into my hands, so that I might slaughter and shed your blood, because rightly am I more lawful than you, and great favors have I bestowed on your creatures." And he began to reckon up those favors that he had bestowed on that one's creatures.

And when the Lord of creatures saw that he had gained victory over him - neither did he know what to say in reply because by his own Law he was condemned; nor did he find an answer to give because he came forth condemnation in exchange for his death - so having fallen down in supplication, he was praying to him "Whereas I sinned and slaughtered you ignorantly because I did not know that you were a god, but rather I considered you a man, let there be given to you in exchange, for revenge, all of those who wish to believe in you to take wheresoever you wish."

So Jesus having released him, he carried off Paul from the astonished ones, and he revealed to him their prices, and he sent him forth to preach that we have been bought for a price, and everyone who believes in Jesus has been sold by that Just One to the Good One.

This is the beginning of the sect of the Marcion, leaving aside many irrelevancies - and what not everyone knows, but rather a few from among them, and they transmit that teaching to one another by mouth. They say, "By means of the price of the Stranger we were purchased from the Lord of creatures," and "How or in what way is the purchase, this no one knows."
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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It is also fascinating - to me at least - how even if I did not have this interpretation of the Hebrew, I, as a non-Christian would have naively thought that Christian writers would have equated the messiah killed before the destruction of the temple with Jesus. It is simply incredible to see how all the exegetes seem to prefer 'unction' (like for instance Aquila's translation) over messiah. Tertullian, Commodianus, Eusebius, John Chrysostom. You'd think with all these incredibly poor 'scriptural proofs' or prophesies made up by these fathers no one latched on to the obvious one that even my father could 'get.' Indeed you'd think that the Church Fathers would have some proof at hand which demonstrates against the heretics that the prophets predicted the messiah would be crucified. No. They could of course have had that proof - if the used the actual text of Daniel chapter 9. Instead they use a Greek translation which renders 'messiah' or 'anointed one' - unction. Yet the 70 weeks is still fundamental to their eschatology. However - and this is even more perplexing - despite the Lord and Savior himself citing the 70 weeks there is no apparent agreement on how to interpret Daniel chapter 9. Every Church Father presents a different explanation - none very convincing at all.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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Julius Africanus's interpretation is also interesting. Written around 221 CE Africanus is said to be the first surviving Christian chronographer. What is fascinating is that Africanus connects the 70 weeks with Jesus. But strangely decides to have the 70 weeks culminate in 30 CE or the Olympiad 202.2.
Africanus interpreted this interval as the equivalent of 475 solar years in the Julian calendar. He counted the 475 years by Olympiads, beginning with Olympiad 83.4. The 475th year begins in Olympiad 202.2, and the prophecy is accomplished towards the end of that Olympiad year in the spring of A.D. 31. Although Clement (str. 1.21) said that the Passion took place, at least in the view of many, in the 16th year of Tiberius, our sources do not actually quote Africanus as having agreed with that statement. The date in the 16th year of Tiberius is a modern inference. What Africanus says (Syncellus 392.4-6) is, "from the 20th year of Artaxerxes and the fourth year of the 83rd Olympiad until the 16th year of Tiberius, which was the second year of the 202nd Olympiad, there are 475 years." The 475th year are not completed and the prophecy fulfilled until the time of the Passion later in that Olympiad year. https://books.google.com/books?id=EGqpe ... ad&f=false
At the very least though Africanus inherited the notion from somewhere (I would argue) that the Passion was a marker in Daniel. His manipulation of lunar and solar years is a way of making the 70 weeks 'jibe' with history. I have to go but it is worth noting this much.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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Because Daniel lacked an explicit mention of the Messiah coming back to life, Christians must have had to invent such mentions. I have argued elsewhere that the Transfiguration is both Danielic in character and, in origin, a resurrection appearance which has been pushed back into the ministry. The six days before the Transfiguration may even derive from Daniel's six days in the lions' den as described in Bel and the Dragon. If so, then the six days is probably one such invented reference.
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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I don't think scholars knew what to do with the sudden ending of original Mark. I think we've made steps here. I agree with your assessment There is a Coptic apocalypse - I think attributed to Peter - which places the Transfiguration after the ressurrection. Also there is a crpytic reference in the Arabic Diatessaron which i read as implying knowledge of a Transfiguration which ended the gospel. I convinced Baarda to write a paper on it. But he ended up ignoring my conclusion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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Does any early Christian writer know the Hebrew reading of Daniel 9:26 - a messiah will be killed and disappear? What about Origen who conversed with Jewish exegetes in Caesarea? Jerome?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:44 pmThere is a Coptic apocalypse - I think attributed to Peter - which places the Transfiguration after the resurrection.
I think you mean the (Greek) Apocalypse of Peter:

Apocalypse of Peter 2.4-5.19: 4 And the Lord added and said: "Let us go unto the mountain [and] pray." 5 And going with him, we the twelve disciples besought him that he would show us one of our righteous brethren that had departed out of the world, that we might see what manner of men they are in their form, and take courage, and encourage also the men that should hear us. 6 And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord upon whom we were not able to look. 7 For there issued from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining so as the eye of man never saw the like: for no mouth is able to declare nor heart to conceive the glory wherewith they were clad and the beauty of their countenance. 8 Whom when we saw we were astonished, for their bodies were whiter than any snow and redder than any rose. 9 And the redness of them was mingled with the whiteness, and, in a word, I am not able to declare their beauty. 10 For their hair was curling and flourishing, and fell comely about their countenance and their shoulders like a garland woven of nard and various flowers, or like a rainbow in the air: such was their comeliness. 11 We, then, seeing the beauty of them were astonished at them, for they appeared suddenly.

Also there is a cryptic reference in the Arabic Diatessaron which i read as implying knowledge of a Transfiguration which ended the gospel. I convinced Baarda to write a paper on it. But he ended up ignoring my conclusion.
Do you have the reference? I would like to see that.
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Re: Somewhat of a Breakthrough in My Own Personal Research

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I will dig that up. Also the Vulgate Daniel 9:26 "occidetur christum"
Last edited by Secret Alias on Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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