Why I doubt that “Son of Man” was found in Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Why I doubt that “Son of Man” was found in Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:33 am If the Father is the Man (of which Jesus is the Son), then he can only be the creator god, who created the man in the his image.
The Beasts in Daniel represent the four gentile Kingdoms and their respective “humanities”. But only the Jewish humanity, all Israel, represents the Son of Man and hence has human traits, since only Israel is created in the image of the creator, per Genesis 1:27.
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
This is the reason I should doubt strongly about the presence of 'Son of Man' in the Marcion's Gospel.

Could the Marcion's Jesus proclaim himself “Son of Demiurge” [=Son of Man], was it even in a implicit way ?


Only at the price of an insincere harmonization I may think of such a thing.


Who introduced the term 'Son of Man' in the Gospel tradition, could be only against Marcion.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Stuart
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Re: Why I doubt that “Son of Man” was found in Marcion

Post by Stuart »

You are wrong Giuseppe.

We have already listed all the places in the text where the son of man is attested as present in Marcion. But the evidence is even greater than that. For example in Dialogue Adamantius 1.7 (Pretty's English translation) we are given a clear indication of how the Marcionites read the text
Adamantius: Well then, Christ says, "I am the Son of Man" Is He in your view, Son of Man, and not Son of God?"

Megethius: Christ is the Son of God.

Eutropius: You said that what is written must be taken as it stands. How is it, then, that He is Son of God when he calls himself Son of Man?

Megethius: He spoke figuratively (παραβολῇ) when He called himself Son of Man.

Eutropius: Is figuratively to be understood in a spiritual sense, or in its natural meaning?

Megethius: In a spiritual sense.
...
Megethius: Some passages are to be taken in a spiritual sense, and some in the literal.

To be honest, this is hardly different from any other Christian sects at the time, or even today, including the most orthodox. Even modern self proclaimed "Fundamentalists" (e.g., inerrant scripture advocates) are as fickle as the Marcionites, picking and choosing what to read literally and what to read "spiritually".

This brings us back to my fundamental point about the Gospels and their use for evangelism. A sect would use a Gospel that was sufficiently close to it's views that minor theological problems could be explained away by exegesis or "spiritual" reading. However if problems with that Gospels text were directly contradictory to the sects message they were forced to write another Gospel to use. This competition between sects and the need for a sufficiently compatible Gospel to their sect's theology and preaching is why we have four today. There were many more sects than four, but the old adage, "horseshoes and hand grenades" or the American "good enough for government work" applies. To write a new Gospel required the problems with the existing one(s) be too great to overcome with fast talking and maybe a small "textual variant" here and there -- what Bart Erhman aptly calls "orthodox corruptions of scripture".

I have come to a conclusion, not that far from John Calbeaux, that the Marcionites are not the first authors of the texts, but rather an early state of the texts. Where I do differ is that I believe the Marcionite texts were the first "published" editions of the texts of Paul and the Gospels (an early form of Luke) and so have a Marcionite editorial layer on top of them. But not a complete rewrite of any (exception perhaps with Galatians being original to Marcion).

There was a Gospel prototype(s), and it developed prior to and independent of evangelism for some other purpose (IMO as an internally performed play) within the confines of proto-Christian (monastic) communities. The Marcionite author/editor contribution was to take this prototype and turn it into a vehicle of evangelism. But within it was contained many instances of passages referring to the Son of Man. Apparently it was not enough of a problem to excise them, or much of anything else (I suspect perhaps ten verses at the beginning with John the Baptist got axed, as they were contradictory; too many hints of the "last prophet" theology remain in the Marcionite text, or rather the polemic against that theology, to believe it was not known to the author). Instead a layer of Marcionite material (e.g., Lazarus and the Rich Man story, also many sayings incorrectly attributed to "Qeulle") was included.

Megethius provides us with the method Marcionites used to explain away the contradictions. The method worked sufficiently well. The mistake you and many others make is assuming the Marcionites were the originators of the complete text, rather than a sect which stood somewhere in the progression of the text, albeit the earliest published versions of the text (by this I mean publicly known beyond the confines of the pre-evangelism monastic Christian communities). The Marcionites were using mostly already written material well known in Christian circles (small as they were) simply adding a layer with their bits to it. And frankly that is pretty much how all the religious books were written. From scratch writings are rare. Instead it's much easier to come up with an interpretive model. Megethius states how the Marcionites did this.
Last edited by Stuart on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:23 pm, edited 8 times in total.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why I doubt that “Son of Man” was found in Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

Stuart wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:10 pm
I have come to a conclusion, not that far from John Calbeaux, which is that the Marcionites are not the first authors of the texts, but rather an early state of the texts.
It is a possibility, yes, but my point in this thread is that even in that case (the Earliest Gospel not written by Marcion) the suspicion is that the term "Son of Man" was used by the true author of the Earliest Gospel against the Gnostics (even if before the propaganda by the single man Marcion)

In this thread I have given my (very modest) reason to raise that suspicion.

In future, I will post the Jean Magne's reasons for that view (this thread was started by me before I received the Magne's book).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Why I doubt that “Son of Man” was found in Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

Stuart wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:10 pm
I have come to a conclusion, not that far from John Calbeaux, which is that the Marcionites are not the first authors of the texts, but rather an early state of the texts.
I like a lot your critical judgement, Stuart.

Only, I would try to go beyond your (probably right) view to see if even before Marcion, what we call "Jewish-Christian tradition" (both in the his mythicist - Asc. of Isaiah and Hebrews and Revelation, for examples - and historicist steps - for example, the Earliest proto-Gospel) is really - as Jean Magne says - a Judaizing reaction against gnosticism.

In hegelian terms:

1) Gnostic thesis: Jesus is a divine being against the Torah

2) Jewish-Christian anti-thesis: Jesus is a man adopted by YHWH and pro-Torah

3) Catholic synthesis: Jesus is both a divine and human being pro-Torah only nominally, but against Torah de facto.


Marcion may be precisely between phase 2 and 3.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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