I think Elisha is shouting to God, not to Elijah.
It can?The first part of the name Elisha (אלישע) can also be a definite article, so in poetry,
I think Elisha is shouting to God, not to Elijah.
It can?The first part of the name Elisha (אלישע) can also be a definite article, so in poetry,
Ah yes, Pentecost in Acts 2 is in the third hour. And here the prayer in the ninth hour is also connected to Jesus' cry on the cross.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:37 pm ...
On the hours of prayer in Tertullian On Fasting:
In like manner they censure on the count of novelty our Stations as being enjoined; some, moreover, (censure them) too as being prolonged habitually too late, saying that this duty also ought to be observed of free choice, and not continued beyond the ninth hour,-- (deriving their rule), of course, from their own practice. Well: as to that which pertains to the question of injunction, I will once for all give a reply to suit all causes. Now, (turning) to the point which is proper to this particular cause--concerning the limit of time, I mean--I must first demand from themselves whence they derive this prescriptive law for concluding Stations at the ninth hour. If it is from the fact that we read that Peter and he who was with him entered the temple "at the ninth (hour), the hour of prayer," who will prove to me that they had that day been performing a Station, so as to interpret the ninth hour as the hour for the conclusion and discharge of the Station? Nay, but you would more easily find that Peter at the sixth hour had, for the sake of taking food, gone up first on the roof to pray; so that the sixth hour of the day may the rather be made the limit to this duty, which (in Peter's case) was apparently to finish that duty, after prayer. Further: since in the self-same commentary of Luke the third hour is demonstrated as an hour of prayer, about which hour it was that they who had received the initiatory gift of the Holy Spirit were held for drunkards; and the sixth, at which Peter went up on the roof; and the ninth, at which they entered the temple: why should we not understand that, with absolutely perfect indifference, we must pray always, and everywhere, and at every time; yet still that these three hours, as being more marked in things human-- (hours) which divide the day, which distinguish businesses, which re-echo in the public ear--have likewise ever been of special solemnity in divine prayers? A persuasion which is sanctioned also by the corroboratire fact of Daniel praying thrice in the day; of course, through exception of certain stated hours, no other, moreover, than the more marked and subsequently apostolic (hours)--the third, the sixth, the ninth. And hence, accordingly, I shall affirm that Peter too had been led rather by ancient usage to the observance of the ninth hour, praying at the third specific interval, (the interval) of final prayer.
These (arguments), moreover; (we have advanced) for their sakes who think that they are acting in conformity with Peter's model, (a model) of which they are ignorant: not as if we slighted the ninth hour, (an hour) which, on the fourth and sixth days of the week, we most highly honour; but because, of those things which are, observed on the ground of tradition, we are bound to adduce so much the more worthy reason, that they lack the authority of Scripture, until by some signal celestial gift they be either confirmed or else corrected. "And if," says (the apostle), "there are matters which ye are ignorant about, the Lord will reveal to you." Accordingly, setting out of the question the confirmer of all such things, the Paraclete, the guide of universal truth, inquire whether there be not a worthier reason adduced among its for the observing of the ninth hour; so that this reason (of ours) must be attributed even to Peter if he observed a Station at the time in question. For (the practice) comes from the death of the Lord; which death albeit it behoves to be commemorated always, without difference of hours yet are we at that time more impressively commended to its commemoration, according to the actual (meaning of the) name of Station. For even soldiers, though never unmindful of their military oath, yet pay a greater deference to Stations. And so the "pressure" must be maintained up to that hour in which the orb--involved from the sixth hour in a general darkness--performed for its dead Lord a sorrowful act of duty; so that we too may then return to enjoyment when the universe regained its sunshine. If this savours more of the spirit of Christian religion, while it celebrates more the glory of Christ, I am equally able, from the self-same order of events, to fix the condition of late protraction of the Station; (namely), that we are to fast till a late hour, awaiting the time of the Lord's sepulture, when Joseph took down and entombed the body which he had requested. Thence (it follows) that it is even irreligious for the flesh of the servants to take refreshment before their Lord did.
No doubt that the Elijah-Elisha cycle is a fundamental part for the whole gospel narrative. We have to study these stories carefully, just as the gospel writers evidently did.MrMacSon wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:07 pmStefan Kristensen wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:41 pm Well, if Jesus' cry on the cross is an "urban legend", then the whole of Mark's story is an urban legend. I suppose we could call it that. But I never considered 2 Kings 2:12 a possible background for Mark 15:34, thanks for that. Also, Elisha's "tearing his (old) clothes in two pieces" is interesting..
The Elijah-Elisha narrative ... is...a literary model for the Gospels ..//.. the Gospels’ foundational model is the Elijah-Elisha narrative. By shifting the emphasis of the Primary History —from history toward biography, and from history toward the (prophetic) word— the account of Elijah and Elisha prepared the literary way for the writing of the Gospels. Thus the Elijah-Elisha narrative constitutes the key bridge between the foundational narratives of Judaism and Christianity.
Thomas L Brodie "The Crucial Bridge: The Elijah-Elisha Narrative as Interpretive Synthesis of Genesis-Kings and a Literary Model of the Gospels"
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Much of the story called the Gospel of Mark follows the story of Elijah and Elisha from 1 and 2 Kings ... For anyone seeking to understand the Gospels, I strongly recommend reading the entire books of 1 and 2 Kings.
... In the Gospel called Mark, John the Baptist represents Elijah ... Readers are told this at the very beginning of the story through the use of literary allusion. In fact, readers are clued in to the fact that the story will parallel much of 1 and 2 Kings right from the beginning. The author uses an implicit reference to the Hebrew scriptures when the author describes the character of John the Baptist.
Price, R.G. Deciphering the Gospels ... (Kindle Locations 300-304; 316-334). Lulu Publishing Services
I think that is the gist of that part of his argument, yes. "On the night in which he was delivered up" does presuppose some sort of account or chronology; that part should not be controversial. You have to understand, though, that I myself harbor doubts as to the authenticity of 1 Corinthians 11.23-28: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2650. So my assessment of the hypothesis is already going to be different than that of somebody who has no issue with 1 Corinthians 11.23-28. And there is more to the hypothesis than just what Goodacre writes, too. There is also Goulder, for example.Stefan Kristensen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:48 amThanks. I think there are lots questions that Goodacre answers way too quicly or not at all in this paper, such as what exactly Paul means by "proclaiming" the death of Christ when eating the Lord's supper. If I understand him correctly (but I've only read this one paper, of course) then he assesses that the evidence supports that in Paul's time there was a coherent narrative in place concerning Jesus' passion, and not concerning his ministry, and that it is this also shows in gMark?Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:20 pmThe hypothesis originates with Goulder (whom I have read) and Trocmé (whom I have not). But Goodacre summarizes and expands it a bit here: http://markgoodacre.org/swan.pdf.
ETA: Oh, and Goodacre also mentions Carrington (whom I have also not read).
Ethan does not know Hebrew: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3972&p=93406#p93406. Everything that he writes on any topic ought to be taken with a truckload of heavy duty curing salt, and nothing that he writes with respect to the Hebrew language ought to be considered at all.Stefan Kristensen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:49 amI think Elisha is shouting to God, not to Elijah.
It can?The first part of the name Elisha (אלישע) can also be a definite article, so in poetry,