"Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Secret Alias »

This might be useful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_ ... ewish_law)

Josephus, writing about the daily whole-burnt offering, says that it was offered twice each day, in the morning and about the ninth hour
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

Ethan wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:18 am It is clear that the story of Elijah is not exclusive too the Old Testament, because OVID was also aware and wrote down a version.

Ovid, Metamorphoses 2. 319 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
Phaethon, driving the chariot of the Helios, was struck down by the thunderbolt of Zeus , Phaethon, flames ravaging his auburn hair (capillo), falls headlong down, a streaming trail of light, as sometimes through the cloudless vault of night a star, though never falling, seems to fall. Eridanus receives him, far from home, in his wide waters half a world away. And bathes his burning face.

Capillo - Hair
Capella - Goat

2 Kings 2
11 - There appeared a chariot and Horse of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
13 - He took up also the mantle(Goat Hair) of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14 - And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters

I believe the original story was composed by Thespis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thespis
Maybe so. Samson seems to be a version of the Heracles myth. But the question is, did the Christians recognize the 'universality' of these stories in Scripture and so endowed them with extra meaning from the other versions they might have recognized, or did they only understand and interpret them within the frame of Scripture itself.
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

Ethan wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:28 am Talking about SALT, Why does the story of Elijah put emphasis on Sodium Chloride.

2 Kings 2:20 - And he said, Bring me a new cruse, and put salt therein. And they brought it to him.
2 Kings 2:21 - And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters

These are the questions theologians can't answer.
I'm a theologian, and I can hardly answer any question at all. Maybe I'm just a bad theologian.
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:20 am Origen makes a connection with the parable of the vineyard with the 11th hour = the resurrection
Interesting, thanks. Do you remember where? (And please don't call people idiots, that's not very nice at all!)
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:02 am
Stefan Kristensen wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:48 am Thanks. I think there are lots questions that Goodacre answers way too quicly or not at all in this paper, such as what exactly Paul means by "proclaiming" the death of Christ when eating the Lord's supper. If I understand him correctly (but I've only read this one paper, of course) then he assesses that the evidence supports that in Paul's time there was a coherent narrative in place concerning Jesus' passion, and not concerning his ministry, and that it is this also shows in gMark?
I think that is the gist of that part of his argument, yes. "On the night in which he was delivered up" does presuppose some sort of account or chronology; that part should not be controversial.
Yes, exactly, I think this small reproduction by Paul of the Last Supper shows that Paul was operating with a complex narrative indeed, just like what we see in gMark. Either it's an interpolation (I'm not fully convinced by the arguments presented in your link, but it's definately food for thought), or else Paul had some theologically framed coherent narrative of Jesus. The Jesus he describes in this section (1 Cor 11:23ff) raises so many questions. It seems that Paul is indeed referring to some kind of narrative, and I don't see why this narrative should be limited only to the passion event. I mean if the earthly Jesus already had this full theological understanding of his death, according to Paul, then that would certainly have influenced how Paul regarded the earthly Jesus in general. Surely Paul would have had very elaborated ideas about Jesus' earthly ministry.

It is often pointed out that Paul writes all his stuff 'only' twenty years after the ministry of Jesus, but in terms of constructing a master-truth to undergird the kind of international Church organisation which we see in Paul's letters, twenty years is a hell of alot! Why shouldn't the Christians be able to come up with a coherent narrative with a special kind of Jesus character in twenty years, like they were just sitting on their hands.
You have to understand, though, that I myself harbor doubts as to the authenticity of 1 Corinthians 11.23-28: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2650. So my assessment of the hypothesis is already going to be different than that of somebody who has no issue with 1 Corinthians 11.23-28. And there is more to the hypothesis than just what Goodacre writes, too. There is also Goulder, for example.

For my money, the concentration on the regularly spaced hours in Mark is already best explained by some sort of liturgical angle based upon the three daily Jewish prayers. The three hours representing the three days of death, burial, and resurrection is an attractive hypothesis, but it does not explain both intervals (3 to 6 and 6 to 9). Amos 8.9 explains the focus on noontime, but it fails to explain the three hour intervals themselves. And both of these hypotheses put together still fall short, since the interval of 3 to 6 is explained by neither. So I reach for other explanations, and a liturgical explanation (to wit, that Mark was either following or innovating a liturgical observance of Jesus' death) fits the bill. Clement of Alexandria shows that the intervals could indeed be seen as liturgical, and Andrew proved the same on this same thread from the Apostolic Tradition. So it is hardly a stretch to suppose that the intervals in Mark were originally created precisely for that purpose. We know from the Quartodeciman debate that Christians were observing the Lord's death very early.

None of this means that the notion is in any way proven. It is just an hypothesis. But it is one that I am entertaining until a better one should come along, at which point I will gladly switch trains. But so far none has. The only other option so far that is really in the running is the historical one: Mark records what just happens to be the manner and timing of Jesus' historical death. But the liturgical hypothesis makes more sense to me.
For my part, I'll go along with the liturgical explanation now, I think, but recognizing that there is much more to it. Goodacre points out that Mark seems to be operating with a larger time-schedule of three hour intervals, in accordance with the Roman division of time into 'watches'. The discourse in Mark 13 ends with the parable of the Watchmen, and that's hardly a coincidence. The whole discourse is about the fate of the Church (the disciples and apostles) after Jesus is gone, and the parable of the Watchmen seems to function as the link which links the Church's fate, which has just been describe, to Jesus' fate, which Mark then goes on to describe, beginning with the planning stage in 14:1-2 by "the chief priests and the scribes".

The 'Watchmen' as the Church in the eschatological era are caretakers of Jesus' "house" in the nighttime, apparantly, because the four watches mentioned are nighttime watches. But they are also the watches used subsequently by Mark in his description of Jesus' night of capture: evening, midnight, cock-crow and 'early'. So there seems to be a sure connection between the fate of the Church in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus' fate. And so it also makes good sense that the element of darkness from the Olivet Discourse is in there in Jesus' passion.


As with the liturgical hours themselves, I think it makes sense that Mark put it there to align with the hours of prayer. Because (1) liturgy was not regarded as some practical human institution, it was regarded as a divine institution of the right way to serve God (cf. the word 'liturgy' itself, "service"), indeed a mirror of the heavenly liturgy by the angels close to God. And (2) this frames Jesus' crucifixion as a liturgical event, i.e. a sacrifice. Which is also supported by the possible 'scape-goat' imagery with Barabbas.

However, Jesus' cry on the cross, "why have you forsaken me", does not itself have the form of a prayer. But if it is correct to view the event of the crucifixion as a liturgical service, and if we are to understand the whole psalm (Ps 22) as the underpinning, then it can be better understood as such. Goodacre writes in this paper that the Aramaic quotation in 15:34 shows that it is not Mark who came up with it, but I think that's a strange thing to say.
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Ethan »

Stefan Kristensen wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:45 am Maybe so. Samson seems to be a version of the Heracles myth. But the question is, did the Christians recognize the 'universality' of these stories in Scripture and so endowed them with extra meaning from the other versions they might have recognized, or did they only understand and interpret them within the frame of Scripture itself.
The main emphases with the Heracles myth are the Pillars, that are located in Gibraltar, that was colonized by the Ancient Phoenicians, not the Greeks, so the story must be Phoenician in origin.

Gibraltar : Ἡράκλειαι στῆλαι , מלכקרת צאלים "Pillars of Hercules"
מלךקרת (Malkarthus - Mercurius)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

Ethan wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:25 am
Stefan Kristensen wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:45 am Maybe so. Samson seems to be a version of the Heracles myth. But the question is, did the Christians recognize the 'universality' of these stories in Scripture and so endowed them with extra meaning from the other versions they might have recognized, or did they only understand and interpret them within the frame of Scripture itself.
The main emphases with the Heracles myth are the Pillars, that are located in Gibraltar, that was colonized by the Ancient Phoenicians, not the Greeks, so the story must be Phoenician in origin.

Gibraltar : Ἡράκλειαι στῆλαι , מלכקרת צאלים "Pillars of Hercules"
מלךקרת (Malkarthus - Mercurius)
Sure, all these Mediterranean and Levantine myths are inter-connected, and to pin down their mutual relationships is a never ending quest. But the question here is (which is not a rhetorical question), what does it have to do with the Christianity of the NT.
Ethan
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Ethan »

NT is Phoenician mythology written in Greek, Greek Mythology can't be understood without knowing about the Greeks, so knowing about the Phoenician, then the New Testament can be probably understood. ,
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
andrewcriddle
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by andrewcriddle »

Stefan Kristensen wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:49 am
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:20 am Origen makes a connection with the parable of the vineyard with the 11th hour = the resurrection
Interesting, thanks. Do you remember where? (And please don't call people idiots, that's not very nice at all!)
Possibly http://www.lectionarycentral.com/septuag/Origen.html
I think this is from the commentary on Matthew.

Andrew Criddle
Stefan Kristensen
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Re: "Eli eli" at the ninth hour is a prayer? (Mark 15:34)

Post by Stefan Kristensen »

andrewcriddle wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:04 pm
Stefan Kristensen wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:49 am
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:20 am Origen makes a connection with the parable of the vineyard with the 11th hour = the resurrection
Interesting, thanks. Do you remember where? (And please don't call people idiots, that's not very nice at all!)
Possibly http://www.lectionarycentral.com/septuag/Origen.html
I think this is from the commentary on Matthew.

Andrew Criddle
Cheers.
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