What are the oldest manuscripts we have of modern liturgies used in the Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Chalc. churches?

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perseusomega9
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What are the oldest manuscripts we have of modern liturgies used in the Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Chalc. churches?

Post by perseusomega9 »

Inspired by this thread here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4662

on the notion of liturgical hours of prayer and Jesus on the cross.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
Secret Alias
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Re: What are the oldest manuscripts we have of modern liturgies used in the Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Chalc. churches?

Post by Secret Alias »

As a passing comment to me Trobisch once noted that a relationship between early liturgies and harmony gospels is/are discernible.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: What are the oldest manuscripts we have of modern liturgies used in the Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Chalc. churches?

Post by andrewcriddle »

The Apostolic Tradition attributed to Hippolytus probably dates from the first half of the third century.
There is a fragmentary Latin Manuscript dating from the fifth century.

Andrew Criddle
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DCHindley
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Re: What are the oldest manuscripts we have of modern liturgies used in the Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Chalc. churches?

Post by DCHindley »

perseusomega9 wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:07 am Inspired by this thread here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4662

on the notion of liturgical hours of prayer and Jesus on the cross.
While I'm not sure this will be exactly what you are looking for, the Apostolic Constitutions, a pseudepigraphical set of apostolic "constitutions," composed around 380 CE, contains what appear to be Judean synagogue prayers as adopted by Christians.

E. R. Goodenough, By Light, Light (New Haven, London, 1935)
"argued that the middle of the second century A.D. is probably the latest period in which the prayers could have been composed, since after this time relations between Jews and Christians were not conducive to Christian borrowing of synagogue liturgy.17 However, one should be very cautious about overemphasizing the break between church and synagogue after the Bar Kokhba war (A.D. 135). The prayers may have been composed shortly before the Apostolic Constitutions were compiled (A.D. 380)."
(D A Fiensy's intro to D R Darnell's, 'Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers,' in The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, ed James H Charlesworth, vol 2, 1985)
D A Fiensy says in his introduction to Darnell's translation:
All three scholars6 emphasized the most striking parallel to the synagogal liturgy, which is found in [Book Seven,] Prayer 4 (vss. 9-12). This prayer obviously contains the Kedushah, which consists of a description of the sanctification of God by ministering angels based on the theophanies of Isaiah (6:3) and Ezekiel (3:12). The form of the Kedushah found in Prayer 4 is much like the Kedushah of the Yotzer prayer in the Jewish prayer book.7
6 Kohler, HUCA 1 (1924) 415f.; Bousset, Nachrichten, p. 438; Goodenough, By Light, Light, pp. 308f.
7 See J. Heinemann, Prayer in the Talmud, translator R. Sarason (Studia Judaica 9; Berlin, 1977) pp. 223f., who pointed out that the Kedushah is attested as early as the tannaitic period (t.Ber 1:9). For the Yotzer, see Bimbaum, Daily Prayer Book, pp. 71-74.
Darnell translates the prayers afresh from
the Greek text of F. X. Funk.1 He collated an eclectic text using Greek manuscripts dating from the tenth to the seventeenth centuries A.D.
1 Didascalia et Constitutiones Apostolorum (Paderbom, 1905)

There is an old but serviceable translation by Wm Whiston (The Constitutions of the Holy Apostles by Clement in Greek and English (Primitive Christianity Reviv'd, Vol 2, 1711), which was later anonymously translated into German as "The Work Claiming to be the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles - Including The Canons," which in turn was re-translated into English (I guess to preserve any emendations and corrections the German translator had made) and published as Constitutions of the Holy Apostles (tr. by J. Donaldson, ANCL vol 17, 1870 = ANF vol 7, 1887).

Fun fun!

DCH

PS: The translator and person who wrote the intro to the translation in Charlesworth's OTP are:
Darnell, D. R., Minister, First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Perryton, Texas. Translator.
Fiensy, D. A., Assistant Professor of Religion, Kentucky Christian College, Grayson, Kentucky. Wrote Intro.
schillingklaus
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Re: What are the oldest manuscripts we have of modern liturgies used in the Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Chalc. churches?

Post by schillingklaus »

There's no such thing as an Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus except in the fantasy of apologists like Dom Botte. The junk falsely caleld such is just piecemeal from various regions and generations.
andrewcriddle
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Re: What are the oldest manuscripts we have of modern liturgies used in the Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Chalc. churches?

Post by andrewcriddle »

schillingklaus wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:03 am There's no such thing as an Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus except in the fantasy of apologists like Dom Botte. The junk falsely caleld such is just piecemeal from various regions and generations.
You may possibly just mean to say that the Apostolic Tradition attributed to Hippolytus is not by Hippolytus and is 4th century not 3rd century. But you seem to be making a more drastic claim.


Are you regarding the various texts generally held to be based on the Apostolic Tradition to be basically independent ? If so how do you explain the similarities ? Are you arguing that one of the surviving texts e.g. the Canons of Hippolytus was used as a source by the other surviving texts ?

Andrew Criddle
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