Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

As an outsider to Christianity I've never understood how - from the very beginning - people cried and felt sad about god 'dying' on the Cross. I can't even understand how God 'dies.' That's another story entirely. But the 'drama' associated with God's capture, death and resurrection never made sense. That's one of the reasons I am partial to the idea of two powers - God and man, Jesus and Christ. It sort of makes venerating a mortal messiah more understandable. The Samaritans even have a hymn venerating a mortal crucified one which is worth citing. This oddly might contextualize the same thought process being present in early Christianity:

The First Hymn of Marqe

(a) This is recited in part on every Sabbath and every Festival. Notice this. At some time it must have been laid down that it had to be recited constantly. It will take me some time to translate. It has 22 verses, each with seven lines. 22 x 7 = 154.

This hymn speaks of death and destruction in the present, wrought by estrangement from the will of God, and urges a reversal of behaviour. One verse could be taken as referring to executions, depending on how you understand one word. This is the fifth verse. Other verses might refer to this, but not directly.

“As a consequence of the sins we have committed, we are afflicted (or punished) with the TShNYQYH. [Look up the root ShNQ in Jastrow]. We can’t blame your goodness. All the blame is on us, since we ourselves have made ourselves perish. If someone goes and hits himself, who can rescue him?”.

Tashnîqayyå is the definite plural of T Sh N Y Q tashneq from the root Sh N Q. Ben-Hayyim is not at all convinced that it always means strangulation.

(b) The hymns translated by Kippenberg are from the collection called the Durran. They are very old. These are the hymns that talk about a very recent rejection of wrong religious practice or perhaps wrong doctrine.

(c) There is a lot of work to be done on the Samaritan liturgy. Life is too short.

Hymn I
by Marqe

...

ל Punishments don’t disconcert the sinner, nor do wounds frighten him. He doesn’t take any notice. The rebel sees himself delivered up to punishments, and finds himself crucified.[1] He turns to his possessions(?) and knows that there is no enjoyment from it.

מִ Death can be compared to a Priest making someone drink the Bitter Water of Testing.[2] Woe on whoever is found to have committed sin. Woe on all sinners, since they will be in great distress. The punishments they suffer are the result of all their offences.

נִ The soul (or individual) stands dumbfounded. Those living are in great affliction, because the Good has turned his face away from them. If the Merciful does not save, and remember those that love him, all the sinners will bewail themselves, because they are in great distress.

סִ The signs tell us that in this generation of ours there is not a single person not in partnership with sinners. The mothers and children, all of whom took part and rebelled,[3] they too are punished with[4] crucifixion.[5]

עִ The fact is that by our sins we are the ones that are the murderers, murderers of the silent and those that can speak. Innocent animals or children that have never sinned, or young adults of good descent, suffer for sins they never committed.

פִ It is the Age of Disfavor[6] that has brought all this suffering about. The fruit of the womb is stopped, and the fruit of the earth destroyed. Every place is becoming accursed for us. The mouth of punishment is open before, ready to swallow up the baby with the old man.

ר Merciful and Good, treat us justly and well as is your nature. We can’t withstand this judgment. A leaf on a tree startles a sinner, so how can we withstand judgment that startles the world? Treat us justly and well, so that we aren’t crucified [6] by punishments[7]
ADDITION: There are some more lines on the same theme in Verse Kaf and Verse Tsade, but they don’t add anything new.

[1] The word from the root tsade-lamed-bet in Verse Lamed is מצטלבה miṣṭållēbå. It is a perfectly normal ethpa’al participle (to use Syriac terminology) equivalent to the Hebrew hitpa’el. The t.et is an infix. It is the tav of the hitpa’el or ethpa’al which moves to AFTER a sibilant and changes its form to match the sibilant. Here it changes from tav to tsade. Next to zayin it will change to dalet. The only difficulty is the suffix, which in form is either feminine indefinite or masculine definite. The second grammatical interpretation of the suffix gives “The rebel sees himself vulnerable to punishments, and knows that he himself is the one crucified”. The first interpretation gives the meaning, “and knows that his identity is crucified”. The word translated “he himself” or “his identity” can only be interpreted from the context and a grammatical analysis of the components of the word, since the usage here is not attested elsewhere.
[2] I have translated according to the traditional Samaritan etymology and understanding, which is not far from the traditional Jewish understanding. Disregard the mangling by most modern translations. This is water that is drunk to establish innocence. It has a tiny little bit of the dirt of the ground round the Sanctuary in it, as well as something to make it bitter, from memory I think wormwood. A guilty person is afflicted by it. (It was a wonderful device for clearing people of slander). The innocent person unjustly accused is given better bodily and mental and spiritual health by it. (This is one of the hints of resurrection in the Torah, and Marqe seems to have it in mind along with the other meanings). The false accuser who has sworn a false oath or committed perjury or conspiracy is struck by afflictions or even in some cases death. The passage in the Torah is in Numbers. I will look up the reference later. There is a lot of traditional theory not stated in the words of the Torah but agreed on by Samaritans and Jews
[3] tashnîqayya. This is the traditional Samaritan understanding here, but Ben-Hayyim argues for the meaning “burnt up”. The Aramaic verb is apparently from the root tsade-lamed-bet, and this is how the Samaritans understand it. Ben-Hayyim thinks this to be a phonetic variant of tsade-lamed-he-bet in this place, but it seems to me that he is scratching round for alternatives to the traditional understanding because he can’t see the relevance of it
[4] maradu
[5] or 'suffer'
[6] Fanuta a core Samaritan theological concept history being divided into periods of favor and disfavor.
[7] verb is shin-nun-qof
[8] The verb shin-vav-bet is Hebrew. The Aramaic equivalent is tav-vav-bet. The participle of the Aramaic verb is Ta’eb. I think your question is whether the Aramaic tav-vav-bet occurs. No. In Verse Yod the verb h.et-zayin-resh is used to mean returning to God or repenting. This is the usual Samaritan theological equivalent of the Hebrew shin-vav-bet when writing in Aramaic. The word Ta’eb does not mean someone that repents. It means someone that comes back again. It is used in the the extant texts in the sense of someone that makes something come back again, the Tabernacle or the Ruuta. That is grammatically impossible. In that meaning the af‘al participle would be needed (=Hebrew hif‘il), i.e. metib. This means the original meaning of the return of Moses has been deliberately obscured.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

And doesn't a failed messiah religion fit the near universally agreed upon dating for the gospel of Mark? And isn't the idea that God comes down to earth and leads to a situation where the messiah of the Jews fails, couldn't that be interpreted as anti-Jewish or at least against the Jewish culture of the previous age?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:19 am And doesn't a failed messiah religion fit the near universally agreed upon dating for the gospel of Mark? And isn't the idea that God comes down to earth and leads to a situation where the messiah of the Jews fails, couldn't that be interpreted as anti-Jewish or at least against the Jewish culture of the previous age?
At contrary, I see it as an apology for the Jewish god, insofar it ("the idea that God comes down to earth and leads to a situation where the messiah of the Jews fails") had to help to explain why there is the paradoxical situation of people who hated the demiurge as the true conscious killer of the son of an alien god. So, if the creator wanted the total defeat of a being, and that being was also his son, how could still these people preach that the creator was evil?

I note that you are using the same logic of Luke 11, afterall:

11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

The embarrassing fact is that some people preached that a particular 'father' was giving a snake to a particular son. Even worse. That he crucified the Snake par excellence.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

But does that make sense. To make a religion of losers? I know you think so because you don't like Jews and think that a religion of Jew-haters could have existed. But I don't think that you can make a purely negative religion. People worship for positive reasons.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:46 am But does that make sense. To make a religion of losers? I know you think so because you don't like Jews and think that a religion of Jew-haters could have existed. But I don't think that you can make a purely negative religion. People worship for positive reasons.
The Yazidis are these losers, unfortunately.


Is it to the myths of H.A. and of Phil, that the origin must be traced back, that one seeks in vain elsewhere, of the Yazidis or Devil's worshipers? Here is how one of their priests spoke in a recent interview, broadcast on the second channel on July 18, 1971: "Brothers, I want to summarize in front of you, for our visitors, some principles on which is based our faith. We have a lot in common with Judaism and Islam. Their God is our God. We, too, accept the first chapters of Genesis, which relate how the archangel Lucifer (see Is 14: 10-15), having disobeyed his Lord and creator, was thrown into Hell. But for our religion, this punishment was not eternal. Lucifer repented and was taken back to heaven while Hell was destroyed, and Lucifer became the Mediator between men and the Most High, to whom he presents the prayers of the earth. "

(translated from Jean Magne, La naissance de Jésus-Christ, cercle Ernest Renan n. 83, 1973)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

So you think by this shitty quote that the Yazidi religion was developed against Jews and Judaism and supports your contention that historically significant religions have been developed against religion? You're so bloody reckless. No it is not agreed that the Yazidi religion represents a(n) historical religion developed against Jews and Judaism. Please shut up.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:29 am So you think by this shitty quote that the Yazidi religion was developed against Jews and Judaism? You're so bloody reckless. No it is not agreed that the Yazidi religion represents a(n) historical religion developed against Jews and Judaism. Please shut up.
No, it is a his evolution. Note that the Yazidis are ditheists (nt dualists) insofar they adored a Lucifer who is repented and ascended to heaven. Just as (per Hypostasis of the Archons) the son of Yaldabaoth, Sabaoth, repented and became the good Demiurge in the place of the his evil father. All is pointing to a previous lost evidence where the demiurge was not repented and was the true killer of the Son of an alien god.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

And where do you get the Jews worshiping Lucifer? Is that from Hitler's Mein Kampf? the Protocols of Zion? Or some equally weighty source?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

And why would I trust your understanding of the Yazidi religion? From Wikipedia:
Their religion, Yazidism, is monotheistic and combines aspects of several monotheistic religions: Zoroastrianism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism



Yazidis are monotheists,[46] believing in one God, who created the world and entrusted it into the care of a Heptad of seven Holy Beings, often known as Angels or heft sirr (the Seven Mysteries). The names of these beings or angels are Azaz'il, Gabra'il (Jabra'il), Mikha'il, Rafa'il (Israfil), Dadra'il, Azrafil and Shamkil (Shemna'il)[93] Preeminent among these is Tawûsê Melek (frequently known as "Melek Taus" in English publications), the Peacock Angel[94][54] (identified with one of these Angels). Tawûsê Melek is often identified by Christians and Muslims with Satan. According to claims in Encyclopedia of the Orient,

The reason for the Yazidis' reputation of being devil worshipers is connected to the other name of Melek Taus, Shaytan, the same name the Koran has for Satan.[95]

Yazidis, however, believe Tawûsê Melek is not a source of evil or wickedness. They consider him to be the leader of the archangels, not a fallen angel.[51][37]

The Yazidis of Kurdistan have been called many things, most notoriously 'devil-worshippers,' a term used both by unsympathetic neighbours and fascinated Westerners. This sensational epithet is not only deeply offensive to the Yazidis themselves, but quite simply wrong."[96] Non-Yazidis have associated Melek Taus with Shaitan (Islamic/Arab name) or Satan, but Yazidis find that offensive and do not actually mention that name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

Peter please move this nonsense to a thread called 'Things Demonstrating Giuseppe Doesn't Know What He is Talking About"
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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