Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:57 am Citing Irenaeus for information about non-Catholic denominations is like citing Mein Ksmpf for information about German Jews. His emphasis, his angle is certainly not their essence, angle. We need actual evidence not hyperbole and exaggeration
Evidently "hypostasis of archons" = "Irenaeus" for you.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

You scribbling in an internet forum does not constitute a new "anti-Jewish religion" only an anti-Semite modifying an ancient Jewish sect in favor of his prejudices. This was apparently also done with the same intent in the third and fourth centuries.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

At least you are clear with these vainly offensive words: for you the text known as Hypostasis of Archons, in addition to be late (point conceded by me, also), would reflect later views, and views that would be even (sic) "anti-semite etc".

So I should have a reason in more to insult the real modern anti-semites, since their bad actions in the past (and in the present, also) work as a ideological barrier to understand the old gnostic anti-monotheism.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

Well you are an anti-Semite and you prefer anti-Jewish texts in early Christianity and feel the anti-Jewish sects came before those that employed the Jewish scriptures. This type of understanding is possible at any time during the existence of Christianity as anti-Jewish sentiment is a consistent feature of world history. Nevertheless all reasonable scholars do not see Christianity as anything but a Jewish sect. But you are neither reasonable nor a scholar so you have different views
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

Getting back to the OP for instance the question would be - was Identifying the Passion as the fulfilment of Daniel 9:26 FOUNDATIONAL to early Christianity? I think it was. I think Mark was written with Daniel's 70 weeks in mind. You on the other hand being motivated against "Jewish corruption " of a silly gnostic proto-religion which never had more than a 100 followers at any one time see the reverse. Judaizers "corrupted " your nonsense religion. That's not surprising because you lack any sense and should be ignored (as I type this sitting on the toilet)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:58 am. Nevertheless all reasonable scholars do not see Christianity as anything but a Jewish sect.
I would have liked truely this premise by you (so that you can have my respect), but you are not confining yourself simply to that premise. You are judaizing the de-judaizer par excellence (Marcion) and this is against all the consensus omnium bonorum. You are more outsider than me from this POV, from the so-called 'field'.

In whiletime, I am came to know that according to Abudarham, a medieval author, the custom of reciting the shema daily morning and evening, which will become a rule, was introduced in protest against the gnostic accusation.

To you the last word for the OP.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

First of all none of your usual nonsense has even been modified to address the OP or attempts I have made to steer this familiar tangential discussion back to the OP. I am not doing anything new by noting the Patristic reports about the Jewishness of Marcion. One of your favorite Marcionists even wrote a paper on the subject. Not surprisingly you never cite it.

Please answer the 70 weeks question
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:22 am First of all none of your usual nonsense has even been modified to address the OP or attempts I have made to steer this familiar tangential discussion back to the OP. I am not doing anything new by noting the Patristic reports about the Jewishness of Marcion. One of your favorite Marcionists even wrote a paper on the subject. Not surprisingly you never cite it.

Please answer the 70 weeks question
First: prove to ask the my favorite Marcionist if his Marcion "the Jew" wanted to adore the creator as his imaginary friend number two.

Second: I was showing my positive judgement about the OP since I think that the debasement of the messiah (to the point of simple disappearance without resurrection) is possibly expected if it had to allegorize the debasament of Jesus-Sabaoth along the judaizing needs. Jesus had to become a mere man (from the gnostic deity - the Serpent - he was) and the Messiah had to become a deity (from the mere man he was).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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arnoldo
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by arnoldo »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:12 am
Secret Alias wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:58 am. Nevertheless all reasonable scholars do not see Christianity as anything but a Jewish sect.
I would have liked truely this premise by you (so that you can have my respect), but you are not confining yourself simply to that premise. . .
It's also a premise April De Conick, whom you cite, supports.
The first Christians were Jews. They had no problem worshiping Jesus alongside the father god almost from the start. I think that this worship was pre-Pauline, and centered in Antioch, although I do not rule out Jerusalem (see my paper in the book Israel's God and Rebecca's Children, "How we talk about ChristologyMatters"). They thought that Jesus was God's great angel who came to earth as a human being and was exalted to the angelic status of the NAME angel at his resurrection. The Jews in the Second Temple period from Philo to Qumran to all the Jewish apocalyptic texts believed that God manifested himself as the NAME angel on earth. This NAME angel, because he was invested with God's NAME, was essentially GOD. The Samaritans had various sectarian movements in the first century that played on this theme. Simon the Samaritan taught that he was the manifestation of this POWER of God, and that he had been sent to earth from the father in order to save the lost soul. The Jewish gnostics in the first century were able to develop the demiurge myth because they relied on these same ideas - that God had a NAMED angel YAHWEH who was distinct from GOD yet was the GOD who created the world.
http://aprildeconick.com/

Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence for a Resurrectionless Christianity Developed from the Short Ending of Mark

Post by Secret Alias »

And, as I have noted many times before, THE IDEA that there was a second god beside 'the Jewish god' or Yahweh necessarily leads to all sorts of uncomfortable questions. It's like being caught having a second love interest. 'Don't you love me?' The truth might well be that the philanderer 'loves' his partner. Life isn't always cut and dry. 'But if you really loved me you'd only love me and no one else.' Well the Ten Commandments infer this isn't truly possible but with another kind of love in mind, parents can have 2 or 3 children and love each child despite not having an exclusive relationship with any one of the children. Nevertheless propagandists will be propagandists and there is a stream of logic which runs through the anti-Arianist writings that says to the effect that IF you assume that the Son wasn't equal to the Father (i.e. if one god is not the same as the other) then you slight the inferior god. This logic, I believe can be traced back to Marcionism and any sect which dared to argue that the Father was better or superior to the Son.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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