Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

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Secret Alias
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Secret Alias »

The clause doesn't imply exclusive use by the Valentinians.
But the context might. The Ebionites = Matthew. Marcion = Luke. Mark = some weird unnamed group. Valentinians = John.
So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine. For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord. But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified. Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.

8. It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds,(4) while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the "pillar and ground"(5) of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sitteth upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit.
The idea seems to be rooted in the elements. There are four principal elements so there are four gospels. Let's look at the statement:

"so firm is the ground upon which these gospels rests that the heretics bear witness to them and (each heresy) starting from (each of) these (documents) each one of them endeavors to establish his own doctrines."

I see exclusivity in that statement - i.e. the Valentinians only used John which is not true. But what is true and what isn't true then about the statement? That the heretics used only one gospel or that they only used one of each of these gospels?

I say it's the latter based on the pattern in Valentinian and Marcionite texts. To that end, the Ebionites didn't only use Matthew but a gospel which was Matthew-like on some level. The Marcionites didn't only use Luke but a gospel which was Lukan on some level. The same for the unnamed heresy and the Valentinian dependence on John. The former was adoptionist and the uniqueness of the Valentinians was that they had a gospel with the Johannine prologue which they emphasized or drew from to support their emanations theory. But the claim that each heretical group only used one gospel was probably true. That couldn't have been a lie otherwise the whole premise of the section falls apart. Besides it's only natural. One would expect only one Law, one gospel and one Quran. The justification for the four gospels is the assumption that each heretical group used a single gospel and so - as there are four principal heresies - there must be four gospels.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Secret Alias »

Why doesn't Irenaeus say 'these heretics pick and choose from the four to establish their doctrines?' It would have been totally 'in the character' of heretics to like one part and ignore other parts of a religious text. But he doesn't say that. He says in effect (to use another heresy) the Marcionites EXCLUSIVELY use Luke so Luke will disprove their doctrines which are exclusively derived from Luke. In another part of Against Heresies he says John will disprove the Valentinians - i.e. their presumed exclusivity with respect to John. But this reactionary understanding of the canonical four is essential to understand their origins. It's the way Columbo catches his criminals. The stiffness of the 'bad guys' is written into the script of the show.

Here the heretics are dogmatically 'monarchian' when it comes to a single gospel. Why is this written into Irenaeus's script? Maybe it was true in the sense that heretics were observed to have a single gospel. But whereas there must have been overlap in actual gospels of the heresies - i.e. bits of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John likely in all four heretical gospels here in Irenaeus's Columbo episode there is an artificiality concocted by the script writer. Each heretic can only use one of the four canonical gospels. Why? Because just like in a 70s hour long drama or a Sherlock Holmes story for that matter - they have to be unraveled by a clever device. It all seems to reinforce some sort of divine providence or order to the universe. The reality was IMHO the four canonical gospels were created to refute the four principal heresies not the heresies exclusively used these four. The exclusivity is 'built into' the explanation of the gospels because the gospels were written against, invented to do combat, to entrap the same heresies.

To paraphrase then: on the one hand, the four canonical gospels are 'elemental.' They are like air, water, fire and earth the building blocks of the one gospel. Together they are the one gospel (in the same way strangely the four species arba'at ha-minim which among the Samaritans and Karaites i.e. the oldest interpretations were used to build a tabernacle or booth).

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Similarly the gospel came into the world as four but the four are one gospel. The fact that the heretics reject the four proves their unworthiness. The four are one and the four heretical groups 'perfectly' attached themselves to each one of the four gospels limiting their true understanding of one gospel. 'We' the Church have the original four elements which strangely can be turned around to refute the four heresies.

Yet this interpretation is nuts. It's insane. Think about it. Not only did the Valentinians not stay exclusive to John (so the premise is disproved right there) nor the Marcionites to Luke (proving the contrivance here) but how on earth could it turn out that four 'specialist' traditions who allegedly focus on a single gospel and only that gospel be wrong about their gospel individually but more over also 'fail to realize' that there was a gospel 'of all four.' The whole premise is mad, unworkable and a lie. Surely an expert on the gospel of John has a better idea about what John really says than a generalist. He would also be thought to stand closer to the original vision that John had. It's all madness.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Secret Alias »

And to put things in perspective there is this metaphor which seems to have been handed down from Polycarp to Irenaeus developed from the Parable of the Sower related to heresy and the true church. Notice that this section of Prescription Against the Heresies sounds remarkably similar to Against Heresies Book 3 only that in place of Paul 'knowing ahead of time' of the heresies and combating them in his letters (so Prescription) this original argument has been adapted by Against Heresies 3 to the four gospels
Let me return, however, from this digression to discuss the priority of truth, and the comparative lateness of falsehood, deriving support for my argument even from that parable which puts in the first place the sowing by the Lord of the good seed of the wheat, but introduces at a later stage the adulteration of the crop by its enemy the devil with the useless weed of the wild oats. For herein is figuratively described the difference of doctrines, since in other passages also the word of God is likened unto seed. From the actual order, therefore, it becomes clear, that that which was first delivered is of the Lord and is true, while that is strange and false which was afterwards introduced. This sentence will keep its ground in opposition to all later heresies, which have no consistent quality of kindred knowledge inherent in them — to claim the truth as on their side.

But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs ] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men, — a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind. For after their blasphemy, what is there that is unlawful for them (to attempt)? But should they even effect the contrivance, they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles, will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory, so the apostolic men would not have inculcated teaching different from the apostles, unless they who received their instruction from the apostles went and preached in a contrary manner. To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith.

Besides all this, I add a review of the doctrines themselves, which, existing as they did in the days of the apostles, were both exposed and denounced by the said apostles. For by this method they will be more easily reprobated, when they are detected to have been even then in existence, or at any rate to have been seedlings of the (tares) which then were. Paul, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, sets his mark on certain who denied and doubted the resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:12 This opinion was the special property of the Sadducees. A part of it, however, is maintained by Marcion and Apelles and Valentinus, and all other impugners of the resurrection. Writing also to the Galatians, he inveighs against such men as observed and defend circumcision and the (Mosaic) law. Galatians 5:2 Thus runs Hebion's heresy. Such also as forbid to marry he reproaches in his instructions to Timothy. 1 Timothy 4:3 Now, this is the teaching of Marcion and his follower Apelles. (The apostle) directs a similar blow against those who said that the resurrection was past already. 2 Timothy 2:3 Such an opinion did the Valentinians assert of themselves. When again he mentions endless genealogies, 1 Timothy 1:4 one also recognises Valentinus, in whose system a certain Æon, whosoever he be, of a new name, and that not one only, generates of his own grace Sense and Truth; and these in like manner produce of themselves Word and Life, while these again afterwards beget Man and the Church. From these primary eight ten other Æons after them spring, and then the twelve others arise with their wonderful names, to complete the mere story of the thirty Æons. The same apostle, when disapproving of those who are in bondage to elements, Galatians 4:9 points us to some dogma of Hermogenes, who introduces matter as having no beginning, and then compares it with God, who has no beginning. By thus making the mother of the elements a goddess, he has it in his power to be in bondage to a being which he puts on a par with God. John, however, in the Apocalypse is charged to chastise those who eat things sacrificed to idols, and who commit fornication. Revelation 2:14 There are even now another sort of Nicolaitans. Theirs is called the Gaian heresy. But in his epistle he especially designates those as Antichrists who denied that Christ had come in the flesh, 1 John 4:3 and who refused to think that Jesus was the Son of God. The one dogma Marcion maintained; the other, Hebion. The doctrine, however, of Simon's sorcery, which inculcated the worship of angels, was itself actually reckoned among idolatries and condemned by the Apostle Peter in Simon's own person.
I don't want to reproduce Book 3 here but clearly you have its outline here. The opening lines from chapter 3:
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about ...
is then followed by a citation of Hegesippus's Roman succession list followed by the statement that:
But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom,(1) departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,--a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics.
Note also that the same heresies that appear in chapters 8 - 11 of Against Hereses - i.e. 'Ebion,' 'Marcion,' and 'Valentinus' only Paul is juxtaposed against their teachings instead of the four gospels. Clearly I believe that the editor of Against Heresies simply removed Paul as the ultimate arbiter of the truth and instead made it the four evangelists, the authors of the four gospels.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Stuart »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:44 am
Note also that the same heresies that appear in chapters 8 - 11 of Against Hereses - i.e. 'Ebion,' 'Marcion,' and 'Valentinus' only Paul is juxtaposed against their teachings instead of the four gospels. Clearly I believe that the editor of Against Heresies simply removed Paul as the ultimate arbiter of the truth and instead made it the four evangelists, the authors of the four gospels.
I am stunned to see you now endorse the "authentic core and interpolations" view of Irenaeus. The admission of an editor in role like John Xiphilinus to Cassius Dio is a nice and unexpected improvement in your position. I'll ignore the ad hoc arguments you apply before that admission.

This really opens things up to examination of Irenaeus and determine what is authentic and what is interpolation in the collection.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Secret Alias »

Well I appreciate you took the time to read what I wrote. That's not easy given my voluminous output.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Stuart »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:37 pm Well I appreciate you took the time to read what I wrote. That's not easy given my voluminous output.
I think you can make your posts more accessible by using links instead of dumping the entire texts. And spend more time on developing the logic of your argument in your posts, and less on hiding it behind source.

I would have, for example, pointed to the lateness of the four gospels listed in Canonical order as already a major problem. If Irenaeus actually wrote in the 2nd century he would not have had the concept of a Canonical order. This is something which was not require nor even thought of until the need to replace material lost in persecutions (Decian at the earliest, Diocletian more probable). But what is more the arguments for the Canonical order were to counter other competing binding orders. We know for certain the so-called Western order which place the Gospels of "the Apostles" before those of "the Seventy" (Matthew, John, Luke, Mark) as a few manuscripts from the 4th/5th century had this, and there is a possible order suggested by Eusubius' comments attributed to Clement about those with genealogies coming before those without (Matthew, Luke, Mark, John). The order was likely not settled even when Athanasius of Alexandria wrote in 367
So too our Lord Jesus Christ…sent his apostles as priests carrying well-wrought trumpets. First Matthew sounded the priestly trumpet in his Gospel, Mark also, and Luke, and John, each gave forth a strain on their priestly trumpets. ...

Irenaeus almost 200 years prior presuming such an order and such an argument for a four fold Gospel volume (single binding) is simply too far ahead of his time to be credible. The Gospels were not yet bound into a single volume when legend has it he was alive.

Of course there are many other similar positions within the Irenaeus collection that make no sense in the 2nd or even early 3rd century, but are perfectly comfortable in the debates of the 4th and 5th centuries.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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