Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

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Secret Alias
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Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Secret Alias »

Irenaeus writes:
Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.
The prologue does not in itself mean that the Valentinians used the Gospel of John. The prologue could well have been part of another gospel or a stand alone 'summary' of the gospel.
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by perseusomega9 »

Does the prologue show any characteristics of being a hymn or perhaps a liturgical prayer?
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Charles Wilson »

perseusomega9 wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:07 am Does the prologue show any characteristics of being a hymn or perhaps a liturgical prayer?
Teeple, Literary Origins..., p. 127:

"The first eighteen verses stand apart from the rest of the gospel. This Prologue is distinctive in its vocabulary, for its following terms never occur in the body of the book: "Word" (logos) as a title for Jesus, "grace, " "fullness," and the verb in verse 18 translated as "declare. " Only here is Jesus called "god" (the correct reading in 18 is "god," not "Son," because "Son" is the result of later harmonization by scribes who copied the manuscripts). The uniqueness of these terms is significant because when essentially the same topic is mentioned elsewhere in John, a different term is used. For example, when alluding to Jesus' preexistence and descent to earth in the rest of the gospel, he is called "the Son of Man" or "Son," not "the Word. "

"The Prologue also contains distinctive ideas not found elsewhere in John. Only here are Christians "children of God" (the expression refers to Jews in 11:52) and "born of God" ("born of the Spirit" in chapter 3 is not identical). Only in the Prologue are "all things" and "the world" created through Jesus, who gave to all who received him "the authority" to become children of God. Only here is the Incarnation doctrine expressly stated (in verse 14), and only here is Jesus the "only-begotten god"--in 3:16, 18 he is the "only-begotten Son." Only in the Prologue does the gospel contain the notion that Christians have received "grace" from Jesus‘ fullness.

The unique vocabulary, distinctive ideas, Semitic-style poetry in certain verses, and abrupt change between the Prologue and the body of the gospel all indicate that one author did not write both the Prologue and the rest of the book. Advocates of the unity of the Prologue have failed to explain why, if the evangelist wrote it all, he did not use in the rest of the book the distinctive terms, ideas, and style in the first eighteen verses..."

There's more, if interested.
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:38 am Irenaeus writes:
Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true. [Adv. Haers III.11.7)(
The prologue does not in itself mean that the Valentinians used the Gospel of John. The prologue could well have been part of another gospel or a stand alone 'summary' of the gospel.

Is that passage referring to the prologue of the Gospel of John? or to Irenaeus Adv. Haers Book I?

The passage you cite is in the middle of where Irenaeus is dissing "the heretics", explicitly using each of the four gospels to diss four different 'heretic' groups, immediately before he asserts there must be four gospels, viz. -

Adv. Haers III.11.6-8 -

6 < . . snip . . > The Israelite recognised his King, therefore did he cry out to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God, You are the King of Israel. By whom also Peter, having been taught, recognised Christ as the Son of the living God, when [God] said, Behold My dearly beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall show judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear His voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, until He send forth judgment into contention; and in His name shall the Gentiles trust."

7. Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by the prophets, and who by Moses set forth the dispensation of the law, — [principles] which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him. So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine. For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord. But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified. *Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.*

8. It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sits upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit . . .

Irenaeus could be seen to be doing any number of euphemisms, eg. smoke n mirrors, shifting-the-goalposts; gaslighting even.
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by DCHindley »

perseusomega9 wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:07 am Does the prologue show any characteristics of being a hymn or perhaps a liturgical prayer?
Like a lot of folks here, I've wondered about that myself. I don't know if there was supposed to be a kind of liturgical use for that passage, but it does seem to be designed to be recited by two teams, each in turn answering the other. I think this is known as an antiphonal chant or prayer, although that does not immediately require it be a part of a formal liturgy.

As for the philosophical cosmology inherent in those 18 verses, it reminds me a bit of Philo but not closely, although whoever wrote it was grappling with the same kind of questions about the kinds of elemental principals that set in order the cosmos.

For those who think that the prologue is quite distinct from the rest of the gospel of John, there are a few common links to the John the Baptist story that immediately follows. I am open to the possibility, though, that these commonalities are just interpolations hooked onto to the hymn the way you can insert code into a database program at certain places built on purpose for such purposes, modifying what the main code does.

RSV John
BGT John
1:1 In [the] beginning was the Logos, 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος,
and the Logos was with <the> God, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν,
and a-god/divine was the Logos. καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
2 This (one) was in [the] beginning with <the> God; 2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν.
3 all (things) through him came-to-be, 3 πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
and without him came-to-be not one (single thing). καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
The (thing) that came to be ὃ γέγονεν
4 In him was life, 4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν,
and the life was the light to (the) men. καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων·
5 And the light in the darkness shines, 5 καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει,
and the darkness has not overcome it. καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν.
6 Came to be a man 6 Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος,
sent from God, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ,
whose name [was] John. ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης·
7 He came for testimony, 7 οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν
to bear witness about the light, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός,
that all might believe through him. ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
8 This (one) was not the light, 8 οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς,
but (came) to bear witness to the light. ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.
9 Was <the> true light 9 Ἦν τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν,
that enlightens every man ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον,
was coming into the world. ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.
10 He was in the world, 10 ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν,
and the world through him came-to-be, καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
and the world did not know him. καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.
11 Into his own home he came, 11 εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν,
and his own people received him not. καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον.
12a But to all who received him, 12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν,
12c he gave power to become children of God; ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι,
12b who believed in his name, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ,
13a who 13 οἳ
13c not of blood οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων
13d nor of the will of the flesh οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς
13e nor of the will of man, οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς
13f but of God. ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ θεοῦ
13b were born, ἐγεννήθησαν.
14a And the Word became flesh 14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
14b and dwelt among us, καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν,
14d we have beheld his glory, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ,
14e glory as of the only [Son] from [the] Father. δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός,
14c full of grace and truth; πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
16 And from his fulness 16 ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ
have we all received, ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν
grace upon grace. καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος·
17 For the law was given through Moses; 17 ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη,
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
18 No one has ever seen God; 18 Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε
the only begotten god [son of God] μονογενὴς θεὸς
who is in the bosom of the Father, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς
He has made him known. ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven 13 καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν
but he who descended from heaven, εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς,
the Son of man. ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, 14 Καὶ καθὼς Μωϋσῆς ὕψωσεν τὸν ὄφιν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ,
so must the Son of man be lifted up, οὕτως ὑψωθῆναι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." 15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
16 For God so loved the world 16 οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον,
that he gave his only Son, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν,
that whoever believes in him should not perish ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται
but have eternal life. ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
17 For God sent the Son into the world, 17 οὐ γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν εἰς τὸν κόσμον
17 not to condemn the world, ἵνα κρίνῃ τὸν κόσμον,
17 but that the world might be saved through him. ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
18 He who believes in him is not condemned; 18 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν οὐ κρίνεται·
he who does not believe is condemned already, ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων ἤδη κέκριται,
because he has not believed in the name ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα
of the only Son of God. τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ.
19 And this is the judgment, 19 αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ κρίσις
that the light has come into the world, ὅτι τὸ φῶς ἐλήλυθεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον
and men loved darkness rather than light, καὶ ἠγάπησαν οἱ ἄνθρωποι μᾶλλον τὸ σκότος ἢ τὸ φῶς
because their deeds were evil. ἦν γὰρ αὐτῶν πονηρὰ τὰ ἔργα.
20 For every one who does evil hates the light, 20 πᾶς γὰρ ὁ φαῦλα πράσσων μισεῖ τὸ φῶς ·
and does not come to the light, καὶ οὐκ ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸ φῶς,
lest his deeds should be exposed. ἵνα μὴ ἐλεγχθῇ τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ
21 But he who does what is true 21 ὁ δὲ ποιῶν τὴν ἀλήθειαν
comes to the light, ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸ φῶς,
that it may be clearly seen ἵνα φανερωθῇ αὐτοῦ τὰ ἔργα
that his deeds have been wrought in God. ὅτι ἐν θεῷ ἐστιν εἰργασμένα.
3: 31 He who comes from above is above all; 31 Ὁ ἄνωθεν ἐρχόμενος ἐπάνω πάντων ἐστίν
he who is of the earth belongs to the earth, ὁ ὢν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ἐκ τῆς γῆς ἐστιν
and of the earth he speaks; καὶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς λαλεῖ.
he who comes from heaven. ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἐρχόμενος
is above all [ἐπάνω πάντων ἐστίν]
32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, 32 ὃ ἑώρακεν καὶ ἤκουσεν τοῦτο μαρτυρεῖ,
yet no one receives his testimony; καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν αὐτοῦ οὐδεὶς λαμβάνει.
33 he who receives his testimony sets his seal to this, 33 ὁ λαβὼν αὐτοῦ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἐσφράγισεν
that God is true. ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἀληθής ἐστιν.
34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, 34 ὃν γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὰ ῥήματα τοῦ θεοῦ λαλεῖ,
for it is not by measure that he gives the Spirit; οὐ γὰρ ἐκ μέτρου δίδωσιν τὸ πνεῦμα.
35 the Father loves the Son, 35 ὁ πατὴρ ἀγαπᾷ τὸν υἱὸν
and has given all things into his hand. καὶ πάντα δέδωκεν ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ.
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; 36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον·
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν,
but the wrath of God rests upon him. ἀλλ᾽ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν.

One can see the stages of development from the hymn about the principles of the cosmos into a narrative about Jesus as a redeemer.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Ben C. Smith »

In my view, the Johannine prologue derives at least in part from the prologue to 1 John:

1 John 1.1-4: 1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life — 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us — 3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

John 1.1-18: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by andrewcriddle »

We know from Origen that the early Valentinian Heracleon wrote a commentary on the Gospel of John. (The Gospel not just the prologue.)

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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Blood »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:33 pm
Secret Alias wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:38 am Irenaeus writes:
Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true. [Adv. Haers III.11.7)(
The prologue does not in itself mean that the Valentinians used the Gospel of John. The prologue could well have been part of another gospel or a stand alone 'summary' of the gospel.

Is that passage referring to the prologue of the Gospel of John? or to Irenaeus Adv. Haers Book I?

The passage you cite is in the middle of where Irenaeus is dissing "the heretics", explicitly using each of the four gospels to diss four different 'heretic' groups, immediately before he asserts there must be four gospels, viz. -

Adv. Haers III.11.6-8 -

6 < . . snip . . > The Israelite recognised his King, therefore did he cry out to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God, You are the King of Israel. By whom also Peter, having been taught, recognised Christ as the Son of the living God, when [God] said, Behold My dearly beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall show judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear His voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, until He send forth judgment into contention; and in His name shall the Gentiles trust."

7. Such, then, are the first principles of the Gospel: that there is one God, the Maker of this universe; He who was also announced by the prophets, and who by Moses set forth the dispensation of the law, — [principles] which proclaim the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ignore any other God or Father except Him. So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine. For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord. But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified. *Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.*

8. It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sits upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit . . .

Irenaeus could be seen to be doing any number of euphemisms, eg. smoke n mirrors, shifting-the-goalposts; gaslighting even.
Irenaeus's explanation for having four gospels is classic non-explanation. He doesn't know why there are four, so he simply makes things up and hopes the reader is gullible enough to believe it on his "authority."

But the preceding paragraph does contain potentially significant information -- if the groups whom he says "use" the four gospels are actually the ones who wrote those gospels.
Docetists wrote Mark
Ebionites wrote Matthew
Marcionites wrote Luke
Valentinians wrote John

If this was correct, then the Docetists would be among the earliest Christians, with the Ebionites perhaps a splinter group from them.
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Giuseppe »

Blood wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:20 am Docetists wrote Mark
Ebionites wrote Matthew
Marcionites wrote Luke
Valentinians wrote John

If this was correct, then the Docetists would be among the earliest Christians, with the Ebionites perhaps a splinter group from them.
Separationists, more than Docetists, wrote Mark, i.e.:
the Jewish-Christian viewpoint, which wants to regard him as the messiah, that is an ordinary man chosen and “annointed” by God.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Irenaeus Says that the Valentinians Used the Johannine Prologue Rather than the Gospel of John as Such

Post by Secret Alias »

But clearly there is overlap in these categories of heretics or could be. Why does a 'Jewish Christian' necessarily preclude 'two powers' ideas? We have to get away from thinking that Irenaeus is actually describing separate sects rather than naming things to separate them. It's like saying 'black footballer,' 'Barcelona footballer,' 'French footballer.' There are many players who are all three.
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