Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Steven Avery
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Steven Avery » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:14 pm

LaParola does a good job. Years back I used to send him corrections, and he would check them and if he felt sound, make the correction.

He utilizes a few well-know apparatuses and gives a composite.

However, no modern apparatus is very good on the early church writers.
My recent study on Acts 8:37 confirmed that once again.
Caveat emptor.

========================

James Snapp in 2017 went through some of the early church writer references:

Luke 23:34a-
Answering the Apologists
James Snapp Jr. Good Friday, 2017
https://www.academia.edu/32432708/LUKE_ ... APOLOGISTS

James was utilizing information from Wieland Willker:

A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels - Vol 3 Luke
Wieland Willker
http://www.willker.de/wie/TCG/TC-Luke.pdf

=========================

My 2014 study is on Facebook:

King James Bible Debate
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2120966 ... omments=22

which tonight I mirrored here:

Luke 23:34 - Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthrea ... 2#post1962

=========================

This thread should give some additions and tweaks.
Last edited by Steven Avery on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rafael silva
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:09 pm

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:15 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:00 pm
Rafael silva wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:41 pm
Rafael silva wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:40 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm
Rafael silva wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 pm
Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
Origen mentions it in his Homilies on Leviticus: https://archive.org/details/werke06orig/page/290 (top of page 290, four lines down: Pater, remitte illis; non enim sciunt quid faciunt).

Hippolytus is mentioned in Biblindex as referring to this verse in a rather obscure work called the Benedictions of Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, but I do not have access to this work, so I have no idea whether it is the right half of Luke 23.34 that is being referenced.
s the quotation from Hippolytus about luke 23,34 in Greek? will it be that she survived in Greek the quotation from hypolito
s the quotation from Hippolytus about luke 23,34 in Greek? will it be that she survived in Greek the quotation from hypolito
More information.
Good morning, friend, I have seen that you have placed the hypolithic quotations on the Lord's prayer on the luke cross. 23,34 survived in Greek. I have a question and original fragment of the work of hypolith?

Ulan
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Ulan » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:33 am

I can't answer the question, but I find "hypolith" an interesting choice for an automatic translator to make. Talk about $10 words.

perseusomega9
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by perseusomega9 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:36 am

Gives new meaning to Jesus' words, "lift a stone and you will find me"

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 5843
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:46 am

Rafael silva wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:15 am
Good morning, friend, I have seen that you have placed the hypolithic quotations on the Lord's prayer on the luke cross. 23,34 survived in Greek. I have a question and original fragment of the work of hypolith?
As I mentioned before, I do not have access to that work. It is quite obscure.

I am not certain that the quotation survived in Greek. It may be that it survived only in one or two of the other languages. But I honestly have no idea, because I do not know how complete each version is.

The work in question was apparently printed in all three extant languages in Patrologia Orientalis 27 (according to that link I sent you), which was published in 1954 and is therefore still in copyright and not available online at the Internet Archive. And I am nowhere near the kind of library which would house that kind of tome. Sorry. I simply cannot check the reference at this time.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΕΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 2519
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by DCHindley » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:21 pm

Jose,

Hopefully this table will help put things together.

ANF volume
page
Author
Title
Where
Language
What is said:
RSV n/a Anonymous Acts of the Apostles 7:60 Greek And he [Stephen the Hellenist, as he was being stoned after being cast down from the temple wall] knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
i 54 Ignatius Ephesians (long Greek form) 10 Greek And let us imitate the Lord, “who, when He was reviled, reviled not again;”[1 Pet 2:23] when He was crucified, He answered not; “when He suffered, He threatened not;”[ditto] but prayed for His enemies, “Father, forgive them; they know not what they do.”
viii 763 Hegesippus Note Books Bk 5 Greek So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other: Let us stone James the just. And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said: I entreat you, Lord God our father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. [Eusebius, History of the Church 2.23.16]
i 447 Irenaeus Against Heresies 3.18.5 Latin translation, Greek lost And from this fact, that He exclaimed upon the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,”
Origen Adamantus Homilies on Leviticus 2.1.5 Latin translation, Greek lost The Lord also confirms this in the Gospels when he says, “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.”
Origen Adamantus Treatise on the Passover (Peri Pascha) 43.30-34 Greek preserved For the sacrifice of this one they made through their ignorance, because they did not know what they were doing—and for this reason it is also forgiven to them — for it is good for one man to die on behalf of all of the people.
v 219-220 Hippolytus of Rome Treatise Against the Jews sect 3 Greek Wherefore “they that sit in the gate spoke against me,” for they crucified me without the gate. “And they that drink sang against me,” [both quotes are from Psalm 69] that is, (they who drink wine) at the feast of the passover. “But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them,” [Luk 23:34] namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles.
vi 220 Archelaus Disputation with Manes 44 Latin translation, some Greek fragments, probably composed in Syriac and here, our Lord Jesus prayed that the Pharisees might be pardoned, when He said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
vii 402 Anonymous Constitutions of the Holy Apostles 2.3.16 Greek For our Saviour Himself entreated His Father for those who had sinned, as it is written in the Gospel: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
vii 445 Anonymous Constitutions of the Holy Apostles 5.3.14 Greek who also cried out about the ninth hour, and said to His Father: “My God! my God! why hast Thou forsaken me?” [Mat 27:46] And a little afterward, when He had cried with a loud voice, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” and had added, “Into Thy hands I commit my spirit,” He gave up the ghost [Luk 23:46]
viii 154 Anonymous Recognitions of Clement 6.5.5 Latin translation, Greek original Wherefore, in short, the Master Himself, when He was being led to the cross by those who knew Him not, prayed the Father for His murderers, and said, ‘Father, forgive their sin, for they know not what they do!’
viii 242 Anonymous Clementine Homilies 3.29.19 Latin translation, Greek original And yet He loved even those who hated Him, and wept over the unbelieving, and blessed those who slandered Him, and prayed for those who were in enmity against Him. [Mat 23:37; Luke 13:34, 23:34]
viii 289 Anonymous Clementine Homilies 11.25.20 Latin translation, Greek original For the Teacher Himself, being nailed to the cross, prayed to the Father that the sin of those who slew Him might be forgiven, saying, ‘Father, forgive them their sins, for they know not what they do.’
viii 430 Anonymous Gospel of Nicodemus 2nd Greek Form, ch 10 Greek Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Father, let not this sin stand against them; for they know not what they do.
viii 439 Anonymous Gospel of Nicodemus, Acts of Pilate (Latin) ch 10 Latin And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And the soldiers parted His garments among them.
viii 500 Anonymous Acts of Philip Of the Journyings of Greek? Our Master was beaten, was scourged, was extended on the cross, was made to drink gall and vinegar, and said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

I'm not sure what to make of it. Early church writers & fathers seem to believe that Jesus did say something like "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (at least the first part). Since it is in most if not all manuscripts containing Luke 23:34, it seems natural to think that it was in the text originally.

Similar sentiments are attributed to James the Just per Hegesippus' account (as preserved by Eusebius) as well as by Stephen the Hellenist Martyr in Acts of the Apostles. Which account might be borrowing from which is difficult to tell.

I do note that Hippolytus of Rome was commenting on Psalm 69 until that final clause, "But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them,” [Luk 23:34] namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles." That final phrase is not in Psalm 69. In fact, there David is asking God to be harsh with his enemies, not lenient. So, Hippolytus must have been quoting something that said the phrase he gives (that seems to be why the translator/editors put it in quotation marks). If so, it would not just be Luke 23:34, but some post resurrection appearance where Jesus discusses with his disciples the significance of his ministry before his death.

Here is a link to a web article that discusses why Nestle-Aland brackets it as an interpolation and UBS omits it . It apparently has to do with p75, an early copy of Luke here, omitting it. On the other side, it shows up in a commentary on Tatian's Diatesseron, which should predate the date of p75. Unfortunately, we don't have a surviving copy of Tatian's Diatesseron to check it against, just a polemical commentary against it. The dilemma is very similar to that which confronts scholars who research the nature and text of Marcion's "Gospel."
http://www.dennyburk.com/did-jesus-pray ... %E2%80%9D/

Here's another link to a Masters Thesis on the subject:
https://wakespace.lib.wfu.edu/bitstream ... _10261.pdf

DCH

andrewcriddle
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by andrewcriddle » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:50 am

DCHindley wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:21 pm
Jose,

Hopefully this table will help put things together.

ANF volume
page
Author
Title
Where
Language
What is said:
RSV n/a Anonymous Acts of the Apostles 7:60 Greek And he [Stephen the Hellenist, as he was being stoned after being cast down from the temple wall] knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
i 54 Ignatius Ephesians (long Greek form) 10 Greek And let us imitate the Lord, “who, when He was reviled, reviled not again;”[1 Pet 2:23] when He was crucified, He answered not; “when He suffered, He threatened not;”[ditto] but prayed for His enemies, “Father, forgive them; they know not what they do.”
viii 763 Hegesippus Note Books Bk 5 Greek So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other: Let us stone James the just. And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said: I entreat you, Lord God our father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. [Eusebius, History of the Church 2.23.16]
i 447 Irenaeus Against Heresies 3.18.5 Latin translation, Greek lost And from this fact, that He exclaimed upon the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,”
Origen Adamantus Homilies on Leviticus 2.1.5 Latin translation, Greek lost The Lord also confirms this in the Gospels when he says, “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.”
Origen Adamantus Treatise on the Passover (Peri Pascha) 43.30-34 Greek preserved For the sacrifice of this one they made through their ignorance, because they did not know what they were doing—and for this reason it is also forgiven to them — for it is good for one man to die on behalf of all of the people.
v 219-220 Hippolytus of Rome Treatise Against the Jews sect 3 Greek Wherefore “they that sit in the gate spoke against me,” for they crucified me without the gate. “And they that drink sang against me,” [both quotes are from Psalm 69] that is, (they who drink wine) at the feast of the passover. “But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them,” [Luk 23:34] namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles.
vi 220 Archelaus Disputation with Manes 44 Latin translation, some Greek fragments, probably composed in Syriac and here, our Lord Jesus prayed that the Pharisees might be pardoned, when He said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
vii 402 Anonymous Constitutions of the Holy Apostles 2.3.16 Greek For our Saviour Himself entreated His Father for those who had sinned, as it is written in the Gospel: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”
vii 445 Anonymous Constitutions of the Holy Apostles 5.3.14 Greek who also cried out about the ninth hour, and said to His Father: “My God! my God! why hast Thou forsaken me?” [Mat 27:46] And a little afterward, when He had cried with a loud voice, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” and had added, “Into Thy hands I commit my spirit,” He gave up the ghost [Luk 23:46]
viii 154 Anonymous Recognitions of Clement 6.5.5 Latin translation, Greek original Wherefore, in short, the Master Himself, when He was being led to the cross by those who knew Him not, prayed the Father for His murderers, and said, ‘Father, forgive their sin, for they know not what they do!’
viii 242 Anonymous Clementine Homilies 3.29.19 Latin translation, Greek original And yet He loved even those who hated Him, and wept over the unbelieving, and blessed those who slandered Him, and prayed for those who were in enmity against Him. [Mat 23:37; Luke 13:34, 23:34]
viii 289 Anonymous Clementine Homilies 11.25.20 Latin translation, Greek original For the Teacher Himself, being nailed to the cross, prayed to the Father that the sin of those who slew Him might be forgiven, saying, ‘Father, forgive them their sins, for they know not what they do.’
viii 430 Anonymous Gospel of Nicodemus 2nd Greek Form, ch 10 Greek Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Father, let not this sin stand against them; for they know not what they do.
viii 439 Anonymous Gospel of Nicodemus, Acts of Pilate (Latin) ch 10 Latin And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And the soldiers parted His garments among them.
viii 500 Anonymous Acts of Philip Of the Journyings of Greek? Our Master was beaten, was scourged, was extended on the cross, was made to drink gall and vinegar, and said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

I'm not sure what to make of it. Early church writers & fathers seem to believe that Jesus did say something like "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (at least the first part). Since it is in most if not all manuscripts containing Luke 23:34, it seems natural to think that it was in the text originally.

Similar sentiments are attributed to James the Just per Hegesippus' account (as preserved by Eusebius) as well as by Stephen the Hellenist Martyr in Acts of the Apostles. Which account might be borrowing from which is difficult to tell.

I do note that Hippolytus of Rome was commenting on Psalm 69 until that final clause, "But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them,” [Luk 23:34] namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles." That final phrase is not in Psalm 69. In fact, there David is asking God to be harsh with his enemies, not lenient. So, Hippolytus must have been quoting something that said the phrase he gives (that seems to be why the translator/editors put it in quotation marks). If so, it would not just be Luke 23:34, but some post resurrection appearance where Jesus discusses with his disciples the significance of his ministry before his death.

Here is a link to a web article that discusses why Nestle-Aland brackets it as an interpolation and UBS omits it . It apparently has to do with p75, an early copy of Luke here, omitting it. On the other side, it shows up in a commentary on Tatian's Diatesseron, which should predate the date of p75. Unfortunately, we don't have a surviving copy of Tatian's Diatesseron to check it against, just a polemical commentary against it. The dilemma is very similar to that which confronts scholars who research the nature and text of Marcion's "Gospel."
http://www.dennyburk.com/did-jesus-pray ... %E2%80%9D/

Here's another link to a Masters Thesis on the subject:
https://wakespace.lib.wfu.edu/bitstream ... _10261.pdf

DCH
One should note that Origen's Peri Pascha survives as a relatively recently discovered Greek manuscript (c. 600 CE) It is not a translation.

Andrew Criddle

Steven Avery
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Steven Avery » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:42 am

There possible additions to that superb chart from David:

======================================

Apocryphal Acts of the Apostles
http://books.google.com/books?id=iUQYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA11
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/apocr ... istory.htm

"So also Thy dear Son our Lord Jesus the Messiah, when the Jews took Him to slay Him, prayed and said, ‘ Forgive them, for they know not what they do. '

======================================

Diatessaron ( discussed on p. 1 & 4)

"But the rest said, Let him be; let us see whether Elijah cometh to deliver him. And Jesus said, My Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ne3bAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA249

Ephrem should be included also, separately, as he has 3 distinct quotes per Wieland.

======================================

In the next group, the ones that seem to me to be most sure important additions:

Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazarenes (even though it is an allusion)
Didascalia
Eusebian Canon Tables (historic-textual significance)

======================================

Plus, the most interesting additions from Wieland Willker:
"Many church fathers from the 2nd, 3rd and 4th CE cite the verses. For the full record compare IGNTP Lk vol. 2, p. 217-18."

Gospel of the Nazarenes (see p. 4 also)
Gospel of the Hebrews
Ephrem
Didascalia Apostolorum (Syriac)
Eusebius canon table (see p. 4 also)

Diatessaron
But the rest said, Let be, that we may see whether Elijah cometh to save him. And Jesus said, My Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
https://books.google.com/books?id=QET6KvmptE0C&pg=PA123
https://books.google.com/books?id=JnTYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA123

======================================

Clearly, there are other important references, post-Nicene that could be easily added, most of these are in Wieland.

Chrysostom (W) with many references and John Cassian and Theodoret, Gregory of Nyssa,
Pseudo-Basilius of Caesarea (W) 4th c.per Wieland. PS-Justin(W). (see p. 4 also)
Ambrose (W), Augustine, Hilary(W) and Hesychius (W) Jerome (W) on the Latin side.

Wieland has a few others discussed

================================

In some cases a little more context is helpful. e.g. The Gospel of Nicodemus:
"Then they placed a crown of thorns around his head. So too they hanged the criminals. But Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."

Post Reply