Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva
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Anyone help me please luke 23,34? Work of Textual Criticism / Church Fathers

Post by Rafael silva »

omeone can please pass me quotes from Church Fathers of the second and third section of Jesus 'phrase on the cross' Father, forgive their sins, because they do not know what they do. For I am working on this verse in the textual criticism and precise support of Old parents before the 3rd century, who can help me, I'm happy.
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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All of which details the 'difficulty' (I would say folly) in using the Patristic sources to reconstruct Marcion's gospel.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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So I can trust that Tertullian in his work quoted 'Father, forgive them their sins, because they do not know what they do' 'can I trust that he referred to this talk of Jesus in his work? Narrating what would be the gospel that Marcia would have written? because I have to be sure because I am doing textual criticism about this verse
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

The Didascalia (century III?) seems to allude to this verse:

Didascalia 6: For our Savior Himself also was pleading with His Father for sinners, as it is written in the Gospel: "My Father, they know not what they do, neither what they speak. But if it be possible, do Thou forgive them."

I think David already mentioned the parallel at Acts 7.60, but here is another, from Hegesippus (century II) as cited by Eusebius:

Eusebius, History of the Church 2.23.16: So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, "Let us stone James the Just." And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, "I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:59 pm So I can trust that Tertullian in his work quoted 'Father, forgive them their sins, because they do not know what they do' 'can I trust that he referred to this talk of Jesus in his work?
No. As far as I know, Tertullian did not mention this part of the verse.
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Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:30 pm Tertullian quotes in this work Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they do? because I looked in your work and I do not think if you managed to find you can send me the quote?
Looking closer, apparently Luke 24:34 has two parts:
"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Tertullian's Against Marcion bk 4, ch 42 says that Marcion suppressed the part about the soldiers "casting lots to divide his garments." I guess Roth thinks that this means that Marcion does mention the "father forgive them" part.

Scholion 71 of Epiphanius's Panarion ch. 42 sec.11.6 says:
11,6 He starts from there then and yet, again, does not go on in order.
He falsifies some things, as I said, he adds others helter-skelter, not going
straight on but disingenuously wandering all over the material. Thus:
...
71. “And when they were come unto a place called Place of a Skull they
crucified him and parted his garments, and the sun was darkened.”
So, as Ben has already noted, the correlation was not to the inclusion of a statement on forgiveness but on the non-inclusion of the parting of garments. I think this shows that unless one pulls apart these statements from BeDuhn or Roth, one cannot really know what they are talking about.

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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:01 pm I think David already mentioned the parallel at Acts 7.60, but here is another, from Hegesippus (century II) as cited by Eusebius:

Eusebius, History of the Church 2.23.16: So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, "Let us stone James the Just." And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, "I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Yep, had that one under Eusebius to placate those who think he made up Hegesippus as part of Constantine's propaganda war to establish a church that was in his pocket. (amen)

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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:24 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:01 pm I think David already mentioned the parallel at Acts 7.60, but here is another, from Hegesippus (century II) as cited by Eusebius:

Eusebius, History of the Church 2.23.16: So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, "Let us stone James the Just." And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, "I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Yep, had that one under Eusebius to placate those who think he made up Hegesippus as part of Constantine's propaganda war to establish a church that was in his pocket. (amen)

DCH
Sorry, missed that. I saw your Acts 7.60 parallel.
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 pm Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
Origen mentions it in his Homilies on Leviticus: https://archive.org/details/werke06orig/page/290 (top of page 290, four lines down: Pater, remitte illis; non enim sciunt quid faciunt).

Hippolytus is mentioned in Biblindex as referring to this verse in a rather obscure work called the Benedictions of Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, but I do not have access to this work, so I have no idea whether it is the right half of Luke 23.34 that is being referenced.
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