Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tical.html But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them," namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles, would this be a reference to Luke 23, 34?
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 pm Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
Origen mentions it in his Homilies on Leviticus: https://archive.org/details/werke06orig/page/290 (top of page 290, four lines down: Pater, remitte illis; non enim sciunt quid faciunt).

Hippolytus is mentioned in Biblindex as referring to this verse in a rather obscure work called the Benedictions of Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, but I do not have access to this work, so I have no idea whether it is the right half of Luke 23.34 that is being referenced.
About this quote from Origines I can trust it quietly, right? Do you know which year the translation of his work was?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:39 pm http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tical.html But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them," namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles, would this be a reference to Luke 23, 34?
Good find. Yes, that looks likely.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:40 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 pm Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
Origen mentions it in his Homilies on Leviticus: https://archive.org/details/werke06orig/page/290 (top of page 290, four lines down: Pater, remitte illis; non enim sciunt quid faciunt).

Hippolytus is mentioned in Biblindex as referring to this verse in a rather obscure work called the Benedictions of Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, but I do not have access to this work, so I have no idea whether it is the right half of Luke 23.34 that is being referenced.
About this quote from Origines I can trust it quietly, right? Do you know which year the translation of his work was?
I am not sure what you mean by asking whether you can "trust" the quote.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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But the quote survives in Latin, not in Greek (apparently). The Latin translation comes from Rufinus (century IV).
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DCHindley
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:39 pm http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tical.html But as for me, in my prayer unto Thee, O Lord, I said, Father, forgive them," namely the Gentiles, because it is the time for favour with Gentiles, would this be a reference to Luke 23, 34?
I'm sure someone among modern scholars has made that argument in the past, and it was probably made much earlier, even in Eusebius' time or earlier.

DCH
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:43 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:40 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:16 pm Do you have information if Hippolytus of Rome and Origenes mentions this prayer of Jesus? If you can, can you place their 2 quotes for me?
Origen mentions it in his Homilies on Leviticus: https://archive.org/details/werke06orig/page/290 (top of page 290, four lines down: Pater, remitte illis; non enim sciunt quid faciunt).

Hippolytus is mentioned in Biblindex as referring to this verse in a rather obscure work called the Benedictions of Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, but I do not have access to this work, so I have no idea whether it is the right half of Luke 23.34 that is being referenced.
About this quote from Origines I can trust it quietly, right? Do you know which year the translation of his work was?
I am not sure what you mean by asking whether you can "trust" the quote.


I want to know if I can trust the Origines citation if I can rest easy with the quote
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:44 pm But the quote survives in Latin, not in Greek (apparently). The Latin translation comes from Rufinus (century IV).

Can I trust at least the quotation from the verse of lucas 23,34 made by origines? because Irenaeus even his work has survived in Latin the work of Irineu in Latin translation passes confidence
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:01 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:44 pm But the quote survives in Latin, not in Greek (apparently). The Latin translation comes from Rufinus (century IV).

Can I trust at least the quotation from the verse of lucas 23,34 made by origines? because Irenaeus even his work has survived in Latin the work of Irineu in Latin translation passes confidence
I gave you the link to the standard text; that is all I can do. We are all relying on the work of countless scholars who have combed through manuscripts most of us will never personally handle in order to assemble the best possible texts of these ancient works. The quote from Luke 23.34 is present in Rufinus' Latin translation of one of Origen's homilies on Leviticus, according to the standard text of that work; the reference is also marked as present in this same work in Biblindex. That is the best I can give you.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DCHindley
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:44 pm But the quote survives in Latin, not in Greek (apparently). The Latin translation comes from Rufinus (century IV).
I think Rafael is seeking to know how much confidence we can have that the Greek writer Origen said what his Latin translators said he said.

So, Rafael, I believe that Rufinus felt that Origen could be rehabilitated with a little sanitizing of statements "added" by heretics. He used Latin because few in his circles and time still read Greek.

The charges of heresy against Origen had more to do with his belief that all souls would one day, with recycling of souls to new lives, be saved, with life in the world acting as a refining fire. Chances are that "forgive them for they do not know what they do" would not be something Rufinus might feel the need to alter.

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