Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva
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Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Someone already managed to find the quotation from Luke 23,34 "Father, do you forgive them because they do not know what they are doing" in the works of Clement of Alexander and Marcion? If anybody found, can you tell me where they are? because I'm searching for textual criticism research
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DCHindley
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:16 pm Someone already managed to find the quotation from Luke 23,34 "Father, do you forgive them because they do not know what they are doing" in the works of Clement of Alexander and Marcion? If anybody found, can you tell me where they are? because I'm searching for textual criticism research
Don't think that it finds its way into Clement of Alexandria. The closest might be:
ANF Clement of Alexandria Stromata B. 13:1 He never remembers those who have sinned against him, but forgives them. Wherefore also he righteously prays, saying, "Forgive us; for we also forgive." For this also is one of the things which God wishes, to covet nothing, to hate no one. For all men are the work of one will. And is it not the Saviour, who wishes the Gnostic to be perfect as" the heavenly Father," that is, Himself, who says, "Come, ye children, hear from me the fear of the Lord?" He wishes him no longer to stand in need of help by angels, but to receive it from Himself, having become worthy, and to have protection from Himself by obedience.
It shows up in Ignatius, in the longer Greek version of his letter to the Ephesians:
APE Ignatius to the Ephesians (long). 10:3 Let us make them brethren by our kindness. For say ye to those that hate you, Ye are our brethren, that the name of the Lord may be glorified. And let us imitate the Lord, "who, when He was reviled, reviled not again;" when He was crucified, He answered not; "when He suffered, He threatened not;" but prayed for His enemies, "Father, forgive them; they know not what they do." If any one, the more he is injured, displays the more patience, blessed is he. If any one is defrauded, if any one is despised, for the name of the Lord, he truly is the servant of Christ. Take heed that no plant of the devil be found among you, for such a plant is bitter and salt. "Watch ye, and be ye sober," in Christ Jesus.
Eusebius of Caesarea says that Hegesippus had written:
Ecclesiastical History Bk 2, Chapter 23:16 So they [the chief priests] went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, 'Let us stone James the Just.' And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, 'I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.'
There is something similar in Acts, when Stephen is being stoned to death:
RSV Acts 7:60 And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
As for Marcion's gospel, Jason BeDuhn places this verse in Marcion's Evangelion. According to Dieter Roth, this is attested by:

Verse in Luke
Tertullian
Epiphanius
Other(s)
23:34 Marc. 4.42.4 Pan. 42.11.6(71) Ephrem, Commentary on the Diatessaron 23.3

DCH
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Is this quotation from Alexander of Clement that it is about Luke 23:34? about the speech of Jesus''Pai, Forgive them because they do not know what they do ''
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Is this quote from Ignatius the original of his work?
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DCHindley
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:17 pm Is this quotation from Alexander of Clement that it is about Luke 23:34? about the speech of Jesus''Pai, Forgive them because they do not know what they do ''
No, it does not show in the scripture index to Clement of Alexandria in the Ante Nicene Father's series vol 2. I just saw that there was something about forgiveness in one of his writings, but it is pretty general.

Another near miss would be Pseudo-Clement of Rome:
For it is in the power of God alone to grant the forgiveness of sins, and not to impute transgressions; since also the Lord commands us each day to forgive the repenting brethren. "And if we, being evil, know to give good gifts," much more is it the nature of the Father of mercies, the good Father of all consolation, much pitying, very merciful, to be long-suffering, to wait for those who have turned. And to turn is really to cease from our sins, and to look no longer behind.


As you have probably found out, the early church fathers did not always quote verbatim, but paraphrased and conflated multiple passages. Marcion, if he really published his own "Gospel" (Evangelion) as the orthodox Christians claimed, was probably working from a text that was very similar to the gospel that has come down to use as "Luke's."

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

'm sorry today, I looked for Father forgives them because they do not know what they do in the work of Tertullian and do not think, Tertullian even quotes this expression of Jesus' prayer on the cross in his work? I tried and I do not think if you can play the quote, I'm happy.
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

Tertullian quotes in this work Father, forgive them, because they do not know what they do? because I looked in your work and I do not think if you managed to find you can send me the quote?
Rafael silva
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

Post by Rafael silva »

DCHindley wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:21 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:17 pm Is this quotation from Alexander of Clement that it is about Luke 23:34? about the speech of Jesus''Pai, Forgive them because they do not know what they do ''
No, it does not show in the scripture index to Clement of Alexandria in the Ante Nicene Father's series vol 2. I just saw that there was something about forgiveness in one of his writings, but it is pretty general.

Another near miss would be Pseudo-Clement of Rome:
For it is in the power of God alone to grant the forgiveness of sins, and not to impute transgressions; since also the Lord commands us each day to forgive the repenting brethren. "And if we, being evil, know to give good gifts," much more is it the nature of the Father of mercies, the good Father of all consolation, much pitying, very merciful, to be long-suffering, to wait for those who have turned. And to turn is really to cease from our sins, and to look no longer behind.


As you have probably found out, the early church fathers did not always quote verbatim, but paraphrased and conflated multiple passages. Marcion, if he really published his own "Gospel" (Evangelion) as the orthodox Christians claimed, was probably working from a text that was very similar to the gospel that has come down to use as "Luke's."

DCH
Was this pseudo-clement of the third century? because I need a citation from parents of the church before the third century of lucas 23,34 because I am making textual criticism if you can help me I am grateful
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DCHindley
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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:19 pm Is this quote from Ignatius the original of his work?
The longer Greek version of his epistles are usually considered to be later than the shorter Greek version, where the phrase is not found. There are some who claim he actually wrote in Aramaic/Syriac, but that is not a majority opinion among modern scholars.

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Re: Can anyone help me in Luke 23,34?

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Rafael silva wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:16 pm Someone already managed to find the quotation from Luke 23,34 "Father, do you forgive them because they do not know what they are doing" in the works of Clement of Alexander and Marcion? If anybody found, can you tell me where they are? because I'm searching for textual criticism research
Here is the verse:

Luke 23.34: 34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.

It is vital to treat the sentences separately. Tertullian and Epiphanius speak only of the second sentence, and their testimony is not immediately easy to iron out. Neither of them, however, mentions the first sentence, the one about forgiveness.

That sentence is potentially attested by Ephrem:

Ephrem, Commentary on the Diatessaron, according to Dieter T. Roth (pages 407-408): 21.3—Et si l’on pretend que c’est le père du dieu étranger qui a amené les ténèbres, on peut objecter qu’elles ne sont pas de son domaine et que, si elles en étaient, il ne les aurait pas amenées, d’abord parce qu’il est bienfaisant et ensuite parce que le Seigneur a dit: Pardonnez-leur, parce qu’ils ne savent pas ce qu’ils font.

Dieter T. Roth remarks (page 338) concerning verse 34: For v. 34, only v. 34b is attested by Epiphanius. The major problem here is that Tertullian explicitly indicated that this element of the verse was not present in Marcion’s Gospel. Volckmar concluded that “Epiph. hier ungenau über den Text des Marcion berichtet” and that “er [Epiphanius] beim Zusammenfassen der ganzen Kreuzigungs-Geschichte mehr das allgemeine Ev. als das specielle Marcion’s im Auge oder Sinn gehabt hat.” Supporting Volckmar’s point is the fact that in the elenchus, Epiphanius seems to have only the crucifixion itself in view, not the details surrounding the event. .... In sum, given that Epiphanius is likely simply summarizing elements of the entire account as evidenced, in particular, by the Matthean wording in v. 33; skipping to a verse beyond the one he discussed in the following scholion; and the elenchus revealing that it was only the fact of the crucifixion in which he is interested, it may very well be the case that these elements did not arise directly from the wording of Marcion’s Gospel.

Jason BeDuhn remarks (page 191) concerning verse 34: In past scholarship on the subject, Tertullian's testimony has been treated as contradictory to that of Epiphanius. But in fact, the latter only refers to the distribution of the garments, and says nothing about casting of lots for them. So there is no contradiction....

So that is Marcion, for whatever it may be worth.

Clement of Alexandria does not appear to mention this verse, according to Biblindex.
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