Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by andrewcriddle »

DCHindley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:37 pm Just for the sake of the spirit of the discussion, here is an analysis of the Latin translation of Irenaeus' AH 3.16.9 compared to Luke 23:34 Vulgate:

Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey)
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1)
1 Peter 2:23 (Vulgate)
1 Peter 2:23 (Douay Rheems)
qui cum vapularet, non repercutiebat; "who, when He was buffeted, struck not in return; malediceretur non maledicebat Who, when he was reviled, did not revile:
qui cum pateretur, non est minatus; who, when He suffered, threatened not;" qui cum cum pateretur non comminabatur when he suffered, he threatened not:
tradebat autem iudicanti se iniuste but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly.
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey) Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1) Luke 23:34 (Vulgate) Luke 23:34 (Douay Rheems)
et cum tyrannidem pateretur, and when He underwent tyranny,
rogabat Patrem ut ignosceret his He prayed His Father that He would forgive those Iesus autem dicebat Pater dimitte And Jesus said: Father, forgive them,
qui se crucifixerant. who had crucified Him.
illis non enim sciunt quid faciunt for they know not what they do.
dividentes vero vestimenta eius miserunt sortes But they, dividing his garments, cast lots.

The thing your teacher seems to be asking you is whether the clause "for they know not what they do" is a secure reading. It is not supported by Irenaeus, or Marcion. The phrase "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do'" is bracketed in Nestle-Aland 27 as an interpolation, although it does not seem there is a manuscript that completely omits it.

DCH
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” is omitted in its entirety by P75 ℵ2a B D* W Θ 070 579 1241
See http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... -luke.html

Andrew Criddle
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3401
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by DCHindley »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:21 am
DCHindley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:37 pm The thing your teacher seems to be asking you is whether the clause "for they know not what they do" is a secure reading. It is not supported by Irenaeus, or Marcion. The phrase "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do'" is bracketed in Nestle-Aland 27 as an interpolation, although it does not seem there is a manuscript that completely omits it.
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” is omitted in its entirety by P75 ℵ2a B D* W Θ 070 579 1241
See http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... -luke.html
Yeah, I realized that later when I read the Master's Thesis I posted a link to. Looks like I misread the critical apparatus on my NA 26. That thesis paper says that omitting the bracketed section of the verse was an "A" reading in the UBS edition, which was based on NA27 I think, but all I have is a dog-eared UBS2 in which the bracketed reading was graded "C" and the lack of it was the last textual variant listed. Seems that this verse has been ever more certainly treated as an interpolation as time progressed.

DCH
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by hakeem »

Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
"Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus is not at all reliable. It is most likely a product of at least two different writers. The mere fact that in "Against Heresies" it is claimed Jesus was crucified when he was an old man or almost fifty years old is contradicted in the gospel according to Luke.

In gLuke Jesus was crucified around the age of 30 years.


In Against Heresies it is also claimed the very disciples of Jesus preached that he [Jesus] was indeed an old man when he suffered.
Rafael silva
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:09 pm

Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by Rafael silva »

hakeem wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:17 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
"Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus is not at all reliable. It is most likely a product of at least two different writers. The mere fact that in "Against Heresies" it is claimed Jesus was crucified when he was an old man or almost fifty years old is contradicted in the gospel according to Luke.

In gLuke Jesus was crucified around the age of 30 years.


In Against Heresies it is also claimed the very disciples of Jesus preached that he [Jesus] was indeed an old man when he suffered.
Could you show me in his work where he says Jesus was 50 years old?
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by hakeem »

Rafael silva wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:11 am
hakeem wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:17 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
"Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus is not at all reliable. It is most likely a product of at least two different writers. The mere fact that in "Against Heresies" it is claimed Jesus was crucified when he was an old man or almost fifty years old is contradicted in the gospel according to Luke.

In gLuke Jesus was crucified around the age of 30 years.


In Against Heresies it is also claimed the very disciples of Jesus preached that he [Jesus] was indeed an old man when he suffered.
Could you show me in his work where he says Jesus was 50 years old?
I stated in "Against Heresies" it is claimed Jesus was crucified when he was an old man or almost fifty years old

In Against Heresies 2 it is stated Jesus was "not far from" the age of fifty when he wassupposedly alive.

http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/ ... book2.html

Against Heresies 2.22.6
6. But, besides this, those very Jews who then disputed with the Lord Jesus Christ have most clearly indicated the same thing. For when the Lord said to them, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad," they answered Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham? " Now, such language is fittingly applied to one who has already passed the age of forty, without having as yet reached his fiftieth year, yet is not far from this latter period....
The argument that Jesus was not far from fifty years of age in "Against Heresies" contradicts the gospel of Luke where it is claimed Jesus was crucified under Pilate but was about to be thirty years old when he was baptized by John.
Post Reply