Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

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Rafael silva
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Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by Rafael silva »

I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
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DCHindley
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Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by DCHindley »

Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
The public domain edition of the Greek texts and Latin translation of Irenaeus' Against Heresies, ed by W. Wigan Harvey, compared the Latin translation to the fragments of Greek (all of book 1 and small parts of other books surviving in quotations from church fathers), and came to the conclusion that the Latin translation was a rather literal ("wooden") translation of the original Greek.

Chances are, then, that even if this citation is in a part of the work where there is no surviving Greek text, the translation accurately reflects what was in the original Greek text.

DCH
Rafael silva
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Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by Rafael silva »

DCHindley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:41 am
Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
The public domain edition of the Greek texts and Latin translation of Irenaeus' Against Heresies, ed by W. Wigan Harvey, compared the Latin translation to the fragments of Greek (all of book 1 and small parts of other books surviving in quotations from church fathers), and came to the conclusion that the Latin translation was a rather literal ("wooden") translation of the original Greek.

Chances are, then, that even if this citation is in a part of the work where there is no surviving Greek text, the translation accurately reflects what was in the original Greek text.

DCH
I am happy then I can trust the work of Irenaeus because it is very important for the new testament, the translation was made in wood? I believe that a translation written in wood can not change
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DCHindley
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Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by DCHindley »

Just for the sake of the spirit of the discussion, here is an analysis of the Latin translation of Irenaeus' AH 3.16.9 compared to Luke 23:34 Vulgate:

Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey)
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1)
1 Peter 2:23 (Vulgate)
1 Peter 2:23 (Douay Rheems)
qui cum vapularet, non repercutiebat; "who, when He was buffeted, struck not in return; malediceretur non maledicebat Who, when he was reviled, did not revile:
qui cum pateretur, non est minatus; who, when He suffered, threatened not;" qui cum cum pateretur non comminabatur when he suffered, he threatened not:
tradebat autem iudicanti se iniuste but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly.
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey) Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1) Luke 23:34 (Vulgate) Luke 23:34 (Douay Rheems)
et cum tyrannidem pateretur, and when He underwent tyranny,
rogabat Patrem ut ignosceret his He prayed His Father that He would forgive those Iesus autem dicebat Pater dimitte And Jesus said: Father, forgive them,
qui se crucifixerant. who had crucified Him.
illis non enim sciunt quid faciunt for they know not what they do.
dividentes vero vestimenta eius miserunt sortes But they, dividing his garments, cast lots.

The thing your teacher seems to be asking you is whether the clause "for they know not what they do" is a secure reading. It is not supported by Irenaeus, or Marcion. The phrase "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do'" is bracketed in Nestle-Aland 27 as an interpolation, although it does not seem there is a manuscript that completely omits it.

DCH
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DCHindley
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Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by DCHindley »

Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:14 am
DCHindley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:41 am
Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
The public domain edition of the Greek texts and Latin translation of Irenaeus' Against Heresies, ed by W. Wigan Harvey, compared the Latin translation to the fragments of Greek (all of book 1 and small parts of other books surviving in quotations from church fathers), and came to the conclusion that the Latin translation was a rather literal ("wooden") translation of the original Greek.

Chances are, then, that even if this citation is in a part of the work where there is no surviving Greek text, the translation accurately reflects what was in the original Greek text.

DCH
I am happy then I can trust the work of Irenaeus because it is very important for the new testament, the translation was made in wood? I believe that a translation written in wood can not change
"Wooden" is a term for a translation that is very literal to the original, even when that makes it harder to understand the context. Some folks like that. Codex Bezae has the Greek text with the word for word Latin word underneath (or over?) the Greek ones. If one were to read that as a continuous text, it would seem strange to someone used to hearing/speaking idiomatic Latin, but alternatively it makes it easier to determine the gist of the Greek text and e can test for same or different Greek words in the translator's exemplar.

DCH
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JoeWallack
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Irenaeus of Lyon (yes, "Lyon")

Post by JoeWallack »

Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
JW:
As always where the hell is Andrew when you really need him. Ruffy, you should be more interested in the evidence than the conclusion. The starting point is the External evidence. You can generally find a lot of (good) evidence here by searching. Check out:

Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). 7 Firsts @ the XXX Olympiads. TransMission E-Missions.
Bugay's identification of sources for Against Heresies:
Eric Osborn says in his study of Irenaeus:

The original Greek text of Irenaeus’ Against Heresies is found only in fragmentary form, while [only one] complete Latin translation prepared about the year 380 has survived (emphasis added). There are three early manuscripts of the Latin translation, the oldest of which (Clareomontanus) dates from the tenth or eleventh century. The others are later (Leydensys, Arundelianus). Erasmus’ edition princeps of Irenaeus (1526) contains some readings not represented by any of these three manuscripts and the sources from which his variants may dreive have since disappeared (pg 1).
JW:
At this point than:

1) Per John Bugay:

2) Per Eric Osborn:

3) Against Heresies extant evidence for original is primarily Latin translations (assuming Against Heresies was composed in Greek).

4) The significant Latin evidence (Bugay later says that none of the Latin manuscripts are complete) identified including estimated date by Osborn are:
1 - Clareomontanus- dates from the tenth or eleventh century

2 - Leydensys - later

3 - Arundelianus - later

4 - Erasmus’ printed edition - 1526
Per Osborn, Erasmus here has readings not found in any of the three Latin manuscripts. I'll add as hearsay for now that all three Latin manuscripts have many differences with each other.
JW:
There are a lot of serious Textual Criticism issues here:
  • The biggest general issue is Age.

    The biggest specific issue is the relationship between degree of difficult reading and likelihood of change.
You seem blissfully unaware that survival of the Latin at the expense of the Greek means that the Latin was preferred. Now why do you think that was.


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism
Rafael silva
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Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by Rafael silva »

DCHindley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:37 pm Just for the sake of the spirit of the discussion, here is an analysis of the Latin translation of Irenaeus' AH 3.16.9 compared to Luke 23:34 Vulgate:

Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey)
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1)
1 Peter 2:23 (Vulgate)
1 Peter 2:23 (Douay Rheems)
qui cum vapularet, non repercutiebat; "who, when He was buffeted, struck not in return; malediceretur non maledicebat Who, when he was reviled, did not revile:
qui cum pateretur, non est minatus; who, when He suffered, threatened not;" qui cum cum pateretur non comminabatur when he suffered, he threatened not:
tradebat autem iudicanti se iniuste but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly.
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey) Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1) Luke 23:34 (Vulgate) Luke 23:34 (Douay Rheems)
et cum tyrannidem pateretur, and when He underwent tyranny,
rogabat Patrem ut ignosceret his He prayed His Father that He would forgive those Iesus autem dicebat Pater dimitte And Jesus said: Father, forgive them,
qui se crucifixerant. who had crucified Him.
illis non enim sciunt quid faciunt for they know not what they do.
dividentes vero vestimenta eius miserunt sortes But they, dividing his garments, cast lots.

The thing your teacher seems to be asking you is whether the clause "for they know not what they do" is a secure reading. It is not supported by Irenaeus, or Marcion. The phrase "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do'" is bracketed in Nestle-Aland 27 as an interpolation, although it does not seem there is a manuscript that completely omits it.

DCH
I do not understand very well the picture that you put this shows that the work of Irenaeus on the verse of lucas 23,34 is reliable?
Rafael silva
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:09 pm

Re: Irenaeus of Lyon (yes, "Lyon")

Post by Rafael silva »

JoeWallack wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:50 pm
Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 am I would like to know of the work of Irenaeus of Lyons and origins if they are reliable because they only survived in Latin because these two works bring the prayer of the Lord on the cross in Luke 23,34 I would like to know if I can trust at least the citation that these works
JW:
As always where the hell is Andrew when you really need him. Ruffy, you should be more interested in the evidence than the conclusion. The starting point is the External evidence. You can generally find a lot of (good) evidence here by searching. Check out:

Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"). 7 Firsts @ the XXX Olympiads. TransMission E-Missions.
Bugay's identification of sources for Against Heresies:
Eric Osborn says in his study of Irenaeus:

The original Greek text of Irenaeus’ Against Heresies is found only in fragmentary form, while [only one] complete Latin translation prepared about the year 380 has survived (emphasis added). There are three early manuscripts of the Latin translation, the oldest of which (Clareomontanus) dates from the tenth or eleventh century. The others are later (Leydensys, Arundelianus). Erasmus’ edition princeps of Irenaeus (1526) contains some readings not represented by any of these three manuscripts and the sources from which his variants may dreive have since disappeared (pg 1).
JW:
At this point than:

1) Per John Bugay:

2) Per Eric Osborn:

3) Against Heresies extant evidence for original is primarily Latin translations (assuming Against Heresies was composed in Greek).

4) The significant Latin evidence (Bugay later says that none of the Latin manuscripts are complete) identified including estimated date by Osborn are:
1 - Clareomontanus- dates from the tenth or eleventh century

2 - Leydensys - later

3 - Arundelianus - later

4 - Erasmus’ printed edition - 1526
Per Osborn, Erasmus here has readings not found in any of the three Latin manuscripts. I'll add as hearsay for now that all three Latin manuscripts have many differences with each other.
JW:
There are a lot of serious Textual Criticism issues here:
  • The biggest general issue is Age.

    The biggest specific issue is the relationship between degree of difficult reading and likelihood of change.
You seem blissfully unaware that survival of the Latin at the expense of the Greek means that the Latin was preferred. Now why do you think that was.


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism
Attachments
Good friend if you looked at my last post I am behind lucas 23,34 I looked at the critical apparatus of the new Greek testament of the 5 revised edition, Nestle, Tichendorf and they all bring the quote from Irenaeus on the good verse I believe that this quotation from lucas 23.34 is in the original work of irineu follows photo below the fifth revised edition
Good friend if you looked at my last post I am behind lucas 23,34 I looked at the critical apparatus of the new Greek testament of the 5 revised edition, Nestle, Tichendorf and they all bring the quote from Irenaeus on the good verse I believe that this quotation from lucas 23.34 is in the original work of irineu follows photo below the fifth revised edition
WhatsApp Image 2018-09-22 at 12.17.12 AM.jpeg (370.38 KiB) Viewed 11325 times
Rafael silva
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:09 pm

Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by Rafael silva »

Rafael silva wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:53 pm
DCHindley wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:37 pm Just for the sake of the spirit of the discussion, here is an analysis of the Latin translation of Irenaeus' AH 3.16.9 compared to Luke 23:34 Vulgate:

Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey)
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1)
1 Peter 2:23 (Vulgate)
1 Peter 2:23 (Douay Rheems)
qui cum vapularet, non repercutiebat; "who, when He was buffeted, struck not in return; malediceretur non maledicebat Who, when he was reviled, did not revile:
qui cum pateretur, non est minatus; who, when He suffered, threatened not;" qui cum cum pateretur non comminabatur when he suffered, he threatened not:
tradebat autem iudicanti se iniuste but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly.
Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (Harvey) Irenaeus, AH 3.16.9 (ANF vol 1) Luke 23:34 (Vulgate) Luke 23:34 (Douay Rheems)
et cum tyrannidem pateretur, and when He underwent tyranny,
rogabat Patrem ut ignosceret his He prayed His Father that He would forgive those Iesus autem dicebat Pater dimitte And Jesus said: Father, forgive them,
qui se crucifixerant. who had crucified Him.
illis non enim sciunt quid faciunt for they know not what they do.
dividentes vero vestimenta eius miserunt sortes But they, dividing his garments, cast lots.

The thing your teacher seems to be asking you is whether the clause "for they know not what they do" is a secure reading. It is not supported by Irenaeus, or Marcion. The phrase "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do'" is bracketed in Nestle-Aland 27 as an interpolation, although it does not seem there is a manuscript that completely omits it.

DCH
I do not understand very well the picture that you put this shows that the work of Irenaeus on the verse of lucas 23,34 is reliable?
I do not understand this graph, do you say that the Lord's prayer on the cross written by Irenaeus is not reliable? did not understand what you said
andrewcriddle
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Re: Works of Irenaeus of Lyon and Origins translated into Latin are reliable?

Post by andrewcriddle »

If Origins should be Origen then the Latin translations of Origen are of doubtful reliability.
Most of the translations were made by Rufinus c. 400 CE and it is clear that Rufinus updated and censored Origen in order to conform to late 4th century orthodoxy.

Andrew Criddle
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