A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

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Giuseppe
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A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Giuseppe »

Can someone report the entire quote, please? I can give only the reference:
Chrysostomus, Ad. Phil. 2:7.

The text reads:

If he had truly become man, he would have ceased to be god.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Giuseppe »

Probably the text above is a paraphrase from this:

What then say the heretics? See, say they, He did not become man. The Marcionites, I mean. But why? He was made in the likeness of man. But how can one be made in the likeness of men? By putting on a shadow? But this is a phantom, and no longer the likeness of a man, for the likeness of a man is another man.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230207.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Stuart
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Stuart »

He was taking an anti-Arian stand in his Homily. The statement is a bit out of context as you present it. I suggest you examine the full section here

http://www.documenta-catholica.eu/d_034 ... -%20EN.pdf
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Giuseppe
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Giuseppe »

No, your text is identical to my and the mention of the marcionites is explicit:

What then say the heretics? See, say they, He did not become man. The Marcionites, I mean.
only later in the same homily 7 he talks about the Aryan heresy.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Giuseppe »

The paraphrase is gained implicitly also from this text:

Today, He who Is is born, and He who Ιs becomes what He was not. For being God, He becomes human, though He did not cease from being God. For He hasn’t become human by separating[8] from His divinity,[9] nor again has He become God by advancing[10] from a human.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chrys ... istmas.htm


So for the marcionites, Jesus can't be a man because otherwise he ceases to be god.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jesus not being a man (in your text) and Jesus not existing (in your clickbait title) are two very different things. Lots of things exist, or are at least thought to exist, which are not men.
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Giuseppe
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:38 pm Jesus not being a man (in your text) and Jesus not existing (in your clickbait title) are two very different things. Lots of things exist, or are at least thought to exist, which are not men.
but Chrysostom's apology seems to confuse/identify deliberately the two things:

The Word who was God did not degenerate into man, nor was His substance changed, but he appeared as a man; not to delude us with a phantom, but to instruct us in humility

(homily 7)

The accusation is that the marcionites believed in a "phantom", i.e. a not-existing being.


ETA: "to see a phantom" was the equivalent old expression to our modern expression "to have a hallucination".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:45 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:38 pm Jesus not being a man (in your text) and Jesus not existing (in your clickbait title) are two very different things. Lots of things exist, or are at least thought to exist, which are not men.
but Chrysostom's apology seems to confuse/identify deliberately the two things:

The Word who was God did not degenerate into man, nor was His substance changed, but he appeared as a man; not to delude us with a phantom, but to instruct us in humility

(homily 7)

The accusation is that the marcionites believed in a "phantom", i.e. a not-existing being.


ETA: "to see a phantom" was the equivalent old expression to our modern expression "to have a hallucination".
There are three separate notions:
  1. Jesus appeared, and was a man.
  2. Jesus appeared, and was a phantom.
  3. Jesus did not appear at all.
You are confusing #2 with #3.
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Giuseppe
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:19 pm
There are three separate notions:
  1. Jesus appeared, and was a man.
  2. Jesus appeared, and was a phantom.
  3. Jesus did not appear at all.
You are confusing #2 with #3.
Not only me, but Chrysostom is using that confusion as reductio ad absurdum of the marcionite belief.
For him, #2 implies #3.

For marcionites, not.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: A lost text of Paul preserved by Marcion denies that Jesus really existed

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:25 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:19 pm
There are three separate notions:
  1. Jesus appeared, and was a man.
  2. Jesus appeared, and was a phantom.
  3. Jesus did not appear at all.
You are confusing #2 with #3.
Not only me, but Chrysostom is using that confusion as reductio ad absurdum of the marcionite belief.
For him, #2 implies #3.

For marcionites, not.
No, Chrysostom is presuming #2, that a phantom appeared and deluded people (in his interpretation of the Marcionite view). #3 is nowhere in sight, except in your imagination.
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