Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

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Secret Alias
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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:47 am

Thank you Josephus confirms that the term existed. Nevertheless my recent research into Josephus seems to also confirm - at least to me - the chronological understanding of the Passion falling on 20/21 CE and an underlying mystery associated with the destruction of the temple as the fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks. Given that 20/21 CE is one of two possibilities for a Christian understanding of the death of Christ which 'fits into' the 70 weeks prophecy I am suspicious that Josephus is not a Jewish source but a Christian source disguised as a Jewish witness. That's just my hunch. In other words, I am not sure that the Testimonium Flavianum is not authentic in the sense that it was original to the Greek composition ascribed to Josephus. In other words, not so sure that a correlation between terminologies is surprising here.
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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by robert j » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:56 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:12 am
... Here's my thinking. Paul clearly thinks that Jesus was left hanging through until the Sabbath. That's what was found in 'his gospel.' But that all the canonical gospels arrange a scenario where the curse is not established - i.e. that he was crucified on the 'preparation day' ... is highly suspicious to me given what Paul says ...
Where does Paul say anything about Jesus left hanging through until the Sabbath?

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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:57 am

Galatians 3:13
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:04 am

The only hint we have from Tertullian is that the Marcionites highly valued this passage:
Why, however, Christ was made a curse for us, Galatians 3:13 is declared by the apostle himself in a way which quite helps our side, as being the result of the Creator's appointment. But yet it by no means follows, because the Creator said of old, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree, that Christ belonged to another god, and on that account was accursed even then in the law. And how, indeed, could the Creator have cursed by anticipation one whom He knew not of? Why, however, may it not be more suitable for the Creator to have delivered His own Son to His own curse, than to have submitted Him to the malediction of that god of yours — in behalf, too, of man, who is an alien to him? Now, if this appointment of the Creator respecting His Son appears to you to be a cruel one, it is equally so in the case of your own god; if, on the contrary, it be in accordance with reason in your god, it is equally so — nay, much more so — in mine.
Drijvers notes
Galatians 3:13 contains in a nutshell Marcion's concept of salvation and occurs again and again in anti-Marcionite literature https://books.google.com/books?id=zJvYA ... an+marcion
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:14 am

There might also be something of an anticipation of the Sabbath crucifixion/death on the Sabbath in the reports of fasting on the Sabbath both in the circle of John and moreover the practice of the Marcionite churches. https://books.google.com/books?id=BHGBW ... on&f=false
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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by robert j » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:31 am

robert j wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:56 am
Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:12 am
... Here's my thinking. Paul clearly thinks that Jesus was left hanging through until the Sabbath. That's what was found in 'his gospel.' But that all the canonical gospels arrange a scenario where the curse is not established - i.e. that he was crucified on the 'preparation day' ... is highly suspicious to me given what Paul says ...
Where does Paul say anything about Jesus left hanging through until the Sabbath?
Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:57 am
Galatians 3:13
Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:04 am
The only hint we have from Tertullian is that the Marcionites highly valued this passage:
Why, however, Christ was made a curse for us, Galatians 3:13 is declared by the apostle himself in a way which quite helps our side, as being the result of the Creator's appointment. But yet it by no means follows, because the Creator said of old, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree, that Christ belonged to another god, and on that account was accursed even then in the law. And how, indeed, could the Creator have cursed by anticipation one whom He knew not of? Why, however, may it not be more suitable for the Creator to have delivered His own Son to His own curse, than to have submitted Him to the malediction of that god of yours — in behalf, too, of man, who is an alien to him? Now, if this appointment of the Creator respecting His Son appears to you to be a cruel one, it is equally so in the case of your own god; if, on the contrary, it be in accordance with reason in your god, it is equally so — nay, much more so — in mine.
Whatever “hint” you find here is pretty obscure in this anti-Marcionite passage from Tertullian in which no specific day is mentioned --- let alone no mention of the Sabbath or Preparation Day.

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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:52 am

But what do you expect from an edited text and and edited text deliberately trying to avoid the antinomianism of Marcion? Look at the example of Patristic texts as a parallel. I think owing to deliberate and manipulative editing of texts by later orthodox figures the identification of the crucified Christ as 'the curse' of Deuteronomy is never quite spelled out. The idea was clearly originally (a) the crucified one is determined to have sinned and (b) his body continues to hang until darkness (the next day) sets in. So Justin says in the Dialogue:
For the statement in the law, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree,' confirms our hope which depends on the crucified Christ, not because He who has been crucified is cursed by God, but because God foretold that which would be done by you all, and by those like to your, who do not know that this is He who existed before all, who is the eternal Priest of God, and King, and Christ
But Deuteronomy does not say that the crucified one would be the Christ. Rather it sets out a specific scenario regarding (a) someone charged with sin(s) who is hanged and (b) whose body continues to hang into the next day (darkness). Indeed Justin originally argued in Against the Jews that Jews didn't accept that Deuteronomy 21:23 foreknew the gospel narrative:
Concerning the last step, plainly, of His passion you raise a doubt; affirming that the passion of the cross was not predicted with reference to Christ, and urging, besides, that it is not credible that God should have exposed His own Son to that kind of death; because Himself said, "Cursed is every one who shall have hung on a tree."188 But the reason of the case antecedently explains the sense of this malediction; [2] for He says in Deuteronomy: "If, moreover, (a man) shall have been (involved) in some sin incurring the judgment of death, and shall die, and ye shall suspend him on a tree, his body shall not remain on the tree, but with burial ye shall bury him on the very day; because cursed by God is every one who shall have been suspended on a tree; and ye shall not defile the land which the Lord thy God shall give thee for (thy) lot."
Yet once again this sort of argument is curtailed by the editors. No rational person could have argued that Deuteronomy 21:23 predicted a crucified Christ. Rather it warned that there would be a curse on the land for allowing someone judged of sins to hang into the new day. The editors simply are not allowing us to see that both Justin and Paul knew of a gospel narrative which conformed or confirmed the 'prediction' established in Deuteronomy 21:23 was was that Jesus hung on the cross until the next day.
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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:56 am

Given the irony that exists at the core of the gospel, having the Jews accuse and crucify Jesus for breaking the Sabbath only to have the Jews themselves break the Sabbath retrieving his body and burying it on the Sabbath, is clearly an ironic trait that we would expect to have been included in the ur-gospel. To be certain, the four orthodox gospels go out of their way to avoid allow us to see this irony. Jesus is dead on the Friday. But Paul knows another gospel and Paul is earlier than the orthodox editors. The statement in Galatians 3:13 couldn't be removed because of its infamy. Similarly Acts reminds us an ur-gospel 'moment' where the Jews bury Jesus's body as Ben pointed out. Little by little we get a sense of the original irony that formed the heart of Marcionism.
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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by robert j » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:15 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:52 am
No rational person could have argued that Deuteronomy 21:23 predicted a crucified Christ.
Paul did. Now just how "rational" such an argument is, and whether it is an actual prediction, or a fulfillment, or just a creative reading, or whatever, I'll leave to others to split hairs.


Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us; for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree". (Galatians 3:13).

Paul constructed his argument from two verses in Deuteronomy ---

Accursed is every man whoever shall not adhere to all the words of this law … (Deuteronomy 27:26)

… for being cursed by God is every one hanging upon a tree … (Deuteronomy 21:23)


Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:52 am
...The editors simply are not allowing us to see that both Justin and Paul knew of a gospel narrative which conformed or confirmed the 'prediction' established in Deuteronomy 21:23 was was that Jesus hung on the cross until the next day.
Well, OK, that's an argument. "The editors" are to blame. I have little doubt the Patristics were serially edited in efforts to get their stories and traditions straight.

However, I think the ability to impose significant edits on Paul's letters (by the time they became more widely known) were inhibited by the letters having spread to some degree around the eastern Mediterranean. You even acknowledge something of the sort ---
Secret Alias wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:56 am
The statement in Galatians 3:13 couldn't be removed because of its infamy.
Last edited by robert j on Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Was the Sixth Hour = 6 pm? Was Mark's 'Third Hour' an Attempt at Harmonizing the Greek and Roman Time Calculations?

Post by iskander » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:44 pm

Galatians 3 :13 explains a particular event as the negation of a bad law. Paul is saying that the current Penal Code curse the victim and he put his two fingers up to the gallery in response.


Deuteronomy does not predict the existence and death of anyone not yet born, what it does is nothing more than any other penal legislation anytime and anywhere; if one living individual is convicted of breaking certain laws then specified consequences will follow.

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