Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:47 pm Ben also wrote:
The "beloved disciple," anonymous in the fourth gospel, was never originally imagined to be named John; that was a later idea, again with the intent of making direct apostolic influence last longer into early century II.
Very interesting. I need to look into that more too. Did the idea start with Irenaeus and Polycrates?
Well, among our extant sources, yes, I think so. But we are missing a lot of literature from that period.
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:52 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:47 pm Ben also wrote:
The "beloved disciple," anonymous in the fourth gospel, was never originally imagined to be named John; that was a later idea, again with the intent of making direct apostolic influence last longer into early century II.
Very interesting. I need to look into that more too. Did the idea start with Irenaeus and Polycrates?
Well, among our extant sources, yes, I think so. But we are missing a lot of literature from that period.
Also, to be clear, I do not think it was necessarily "an idea." I doubt they even thought twice about it. It was an assumption. We know that such a conclusion can be a raw assumption because many modern readers make the same assumption when they read Papias. "Oh, John! I know that guy. Brother of James, son of Zebedee. Got it."
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Also, bear in mind that my own view depends upon that second "disciples of the Lord" phrase being an interpolation. Hardly a noncontroversial proposition, let me tell you. If that phrase is original, then things get complicated. A lot of the same insights still hold, but now "the elder" (still different from John of Zebedee) is another disciple named John. This is what Bauckham and Hengel (among others) believe.
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

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I do not get that feeling at all. John of Zebedee as he appears in Matthew, Mark, and Luke is a Galilean; the "beloved disciple" in John does not seem to appear until the passion sequence in Judea. Also, John of Zebedee is listed in the appendix (in John 21.2) along with all the other named or identified disciples; so why keep his name a secret? What in the gospel of John, on its own merits, even suggests John of Zebedee as either the author or the beloved disciple?
I'm just going by what I've been gathering from others today. It's fine with me then if it doesn't hold water.
No, almost certainly not. The Greek of Revelation is notoriously barbaric. The Greek of the epistles is fine. As Dionysius of Alexandria wrote (according to Eusebius, History of the Church 7.25.24-25), "Moreover, it can also be shown that the diction of the gospel and epistle differs from that of the apocalypse. For they [= the gospel and the epistle, 1 John] were written not only without error as regards the Greek language, but also with elegance in their expression, in their reasonings, and in their entire structure. They are far indeed from betraying any barbarism or solecism, or any vulgarism whatever." Dionysius is contrasting the barbarisms and solecisms of the apocalypse with the elegant diction of the gospel and the first epistle of John (2 & 3 John being too short to do much with).
Thanks!
No, I think they both assumed that Papias was talking about only one John, and that this John was the son of Zebedee, the apostle, the disciple, the elder, and the evangelist all rolled up into one.
Ah.

Okay, so let's see what we have now.

1. John the son of Zebedee, disciple of Jesus (and perhaps the pillar as well)
2. John the elder, otherwise unknown (like Aristion)
3. John of Patmos who wrote Revelation
4. Whoever wrote the gospel of John

And if I had to pick one of them as being the author of at least 1 John, I would pick number 1, since 1 John strikes me as being Jewish Christian (in line with James). And I could live with the idea that this John went on to live in Asia and wore a "sacerdotal plate" (i.e, he had uncut Nazirite hair, like James).
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:55 pm Also, bear in mind that my own view depends upon that second "disciples of the Lord" phrase being an interpolation.
I took a fresh look at your argument and it makes sense to me.
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:04 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:55 pm Also, bear in mind that my own view depends upon that second "disciples of the Lord" phrase being an interpolation.
I took a fresh look at your argument and it makes sense to me.
Thanks. :) One down, everybody else to go.
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

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My only question now is, why are 2 and 3 John thought to have not been authored by the same person who wrote 1 John? I suppose that Papias only knowing 1 John and only 2 and 3 John saying "the elder" could be an indication of it, but what else is there?
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

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John2 wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:03 pm
Okay, so let's see what we have now.

1. John the son of Zebedee, disciple of Jesus (and perhaps the pillar as well)
2. John the elder, otherwise unknown (like Aristion)
3. John of Patmos who wrote Revelation
4. Whoever wrote the gospel of John
Just
  • John the Baptist
  • John the Apostle (Aramaic: ܝܘܚܢܢ ܫܠܝܚܐ‎ Yohanan Shliha; Hebrew: יוחנן בן זבדי‎ Yohanan Ben Zavdai; Koine Greek: Ἰωάννης; Latin: Ioannes;
  • John the Evangelist ( Greek: Εὐαγγελιστής Ἰωάννης)
  • John the Theologian
  • John the Divine, and
  • John the Presbyter
to go :P :popcorn: :D
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:08 pm My only question now is, why are 2 and 3 John thought to have not been authored by the same person who wrote 1 John? I suppose that Papias only knowing 1 John and only 2 and 3 John saying "the elder" could be an indication of it, but what else is there?
The heavy similarity of style and subject matter, especially between 1 & 2 John. If I were to quote random verses from each, I do not think you could tell which was which, unless you had them basically memorized. See here for more, as well: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3194. Something is going on between them.
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Re: Who was John the Elder? The same author of the Epistles of 1 & 2 John

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Without looking them up, and hopefully not having memorized very many of them, can you tell which of the epistles of John each line comes from?

Many false prophets have gone out into the world.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

The one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

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