On the anti-marcionite spittle of Jesus

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Peter Kirby
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Re: On the anti-marcionite spittle of Jesus

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:13 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:41 pm
Here there is mention of even three attempts, too, respectively the giving of the matter (by archons), of the soul (by the demiurge) and of the spirit (by the Supreme God):

The rulers laid plans and said, "Come, let us create a man that will be soil from the earth." They modeled their creature as one wholly of the earth. Now the rulers [...] body [...] they have [...] female [...] is [...] with the face of a beast. They had taken some soil from the earth and modeled their man after their body and after the image of God that had appeared to them in the waters. They said, "Come, let us lay hold of it by means of the form that we have modeled, so that it may see its male counterpart [...], and we may seize it with the form that we have modeled" – not understanding the force of God, because of their powerlessness. And he breathed into his face; and the man came to have a soul (and remained) upon the ground many days. But they could not make him arise because of their powerlessness. Like storm winds they persisted (in blowing), that they might try to capture that image, which had appeared to them in the waters. And they did not know the identity of its power.
Now all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety. Afterwards, the spirit saw the soul-endowed man upon the ground. And the spirit came forth from the Adamantine Land; it descended and came to dwell within him, and that man became a living soul. It called his name Adam, since he was found moving upon the ground.

I forgot to comment on this. It's a good example of the kind of thing I was looking for. It comes close to representing what you were saying, with the substitution of "the spirit" where you had mentioned "Sophia."

It seems to have the most relevant element - an initial failure at creating life, only succeeding with the aid of the higher good god. It also identifies the source of the failure as the absence of an adequate life-giving spirit.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

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MrMacSon
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Re: On the anti-marcionite spittle of Jesus

Post by MrMacSon » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:15 pm

Peter Kirby wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:34 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:17 am
Just as it was necessary for the Creator to animate the creation by the help of Sophia (i.e., with a second attempt)
Is this based on some ancient sources (other than Genesis)?
I'm not sure what Giuseppe had in mind, and don't want to put words in his mouth, but it could be related to the Gnostic [Sethian Gnostic?] Secret Book of John in which the savior reveals the mysteries to John about how the physical world came into being.

Sophia/Wisdom, the lowest aeon, had desired to think her own thought, separate from the will of the Invisible Spirit and without the consent of her consort. Wisdom’s independent thinking disturbed the harmony and stability of the Entirety and that produced an imperfect ugly being, Ialdobaōth, which Sophia cast outside the Entirety. Then Ialdobaōth used formless matter to form the universe as a kind of dim replica of the spiritual world he had been formed in.

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