The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:03 pm I think that Vinzent has detected as probable feature of an anti-marcionite pattern (occurring again and again in writers after Marcion) the appeal to Apostolic Succession and/or oral tradition (in addition to use of scriptures).
Then flesh that out. Show me. I have tried to date Papias after Marcion(ism) before and failed. Help me succeed.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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I have read years ago both the 2 books of Vinzent and I have them. Surely I should criticize the style a bit rethoric of the prof but maybe it is only my defect of understanding. I remember that he devoted a lot of pages about that Prologue on Papias/Marcion to make his case. When I have time, I can show these pages here.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:15 pm I have read years ago both the 2 books of Vinzent and I have them. Surely I should criticize the style a bit rethoric of the prof but maybe it is only my defect of understanding. I remember that he devoted a lot of pages about that Prologue on Papias/Marcion to make his case. When I have time, I can show these pages here.
Thank you for that.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:18 am
I am prepared to dispute each and every one of these arguments for Papias reacting against Marcion:
Justifiably. I think it's hard to use Papias for much, especially when all we have is snippets from Irenaeus, Eusbeius, and, as you've pointed out, other later people like Andrew of Caesarea.

Hence why I asked about sources in the OP in the other thread. And it would seem that Peter K is across Papias as much as anyone else, which is why I have been intrigued when his earlychristianwritings Papias page says "I consider the fragment X of the Roberts-Donaldson collection of fragments to be completely suspect as the alleged words of Papias", though have since realised that may just be reference to the section X at the bottom.

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 pm
Vinzent portrays Papias as anti-Marcionite in Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, so perhaps Papias was facilitating 'the competition' -

.
[Papias] reports that the Twelve had 'to make up for the traitor Judas', a story known from Acts which indirectly excludes Paul from being an Apostle.65

65 According to Euseb. Hist. eccl. III 39,10; see Acts 1:17-25.
.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:18 am 1. The story from Acts about Judas is not from Papias; it is, as Eusebius states, from Acts.
Sure, and why Vinzent thought Paul should be considered a disciple of Jesus / member of the immediate post-Ascension brethren (Acts 1:15, 16) - when he clearly wasn't part of that group then - seems illogical, so I think that sentence by Vinzent is a non-sequitur.


Vinzent:
Papias not mentioning Paul, who is to Marcion the authority and the sole Apostle,66 his insistence upon a distance between the Lord and any author of written accounts, and his avoidance of using Marcion's newly created catchwords (Gospel, Old and New Testament), all contribute to an anti-Marcionite profile.67

67 See Papias Hier., Frg. 4. 7 (... cum se in praefatione adserat non varias opinones sequi, sed apostolos habere auctores) (100, 12: 106 Hübner/Kürzinger/Siegert).

Ben wrote:2. It is not certain that Papias does not mention Paul. There is an Armenian translation of Andrew of Caesarea which includes a bit attributed to Papias which reads, "Yet Christ came, and the law, which was impossible for anyone else, he fulfilled in his body, according to the apostle," in which "the apostle" probably has to be Paul. I am prepared to concede that this Papian reference is not at all solid (and is rejected by several scholars), yet even if we could be assured that Papias never mentioned Paul, or even that he did not admire Paul, I suspect that the cause might well have been a deep and early split between Johannine and Pauline Christianity in Asia Minor, with Marcionism arising out of the Pauline side of things.
Cheers, though "a deep and early split between Johannine and Pauline Christianity in Asia Minor, with Marcionism arising out of the Pauline side of things" might confirm Vinzent's point.


Ben wrote: 4. Papias' "avoidance of using Marcion's newly created catchwords" is (obviously) just as easily explained by his predating Marcion.
And the fact those catch words would not have been widely used.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:18 am I myself suspect that this kind of "big bang" thinking is unlikely to get an accurate read on the origins of Christianity. Marcion does not secretly lie under every stone in the pavement of the early church. Nor does Paul. Nor does Mark. Nor does Matthew or Peter or John the baptist.
No, but there is a pavement there, and it is now missing a few stones, as well as some things that used to be under them. Also, perceptions of the 'concreteness' of the pavement are changing (see http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=4777)
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:04 pmnd it would seem that Peter K is across Papias as much as anyone else, which is why I have been intrigued when his earlychristianwritings Papias page says "I consider the fragment X of the Roberts-Donaldson collection of fragments to be completely suspect as the alleged words of Papias", though have since realised that may just be reference to the section X at the bottom.
The fragment in question (Roberts-Donaldson fragment 10) is simply a passage from a medieval manuscript which attributes itself to "Papias" in the margin. But Lightfoot demonstrated decades ago that this passage is to be assigned to a different Papias, Papias of Lombardy. Details are here: http://textexcavation.com/papias.html#extra.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:20 pm The fragment in question (Roberts-Donaldson fragment 10) is simply a passage from a medieval manuscript which attributes itself to "Papias" in the margin. But Lightfoot demonstrated decades ago that this passage is to be assigned to a different Papias, Papias of Lombardy. Details are here: http://textexcavation.com/papias.html#extra.
ah, ok. I had seen reference to Papias of Lombardy, and that Papias was apparently a common name. I hadn't looked closely at those fragment numbers either, assuming each was a chapter number, so I hadn't even twigged they are sequential.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:01 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:20 pm The fragment in question (Roberts-Donaldson fragment 10) is simply a passage from a medieval manuscript which attributes itself to "Papias" in the margin. But Lightfoot demonstrated decades ago that this passage is to be assigned to a different Papias, Papias of Lombardy. Details are here: http://textexcavation.com/papias.html#extra.
ah, ok. I had seen reference to Papias of Lombardy, and that Papias was apparently a common name. I hadn't looked closely at those fragment numbers either, assuming each was a chapter number, so I hadn't even twigged they are sequential.
You can compare two different numbering systems for the Papian fragments on my old Papias page: http://textexcavation.com/papias.html#table.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm You can compare two different numbering systems for the Papian fragments on my old Papias page: http://textexcavation.com/papias.html#table.
Cheers Ben.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pmYou can compare two different numbering systems for the Papian fragments on my old Papias page: http://textexcavation.com/papias.html#table.
Thanks for reminding us (read "me") that you had already worked out the sources for Papias.

Although I do have the latest English revision of Lightfoot's book, for whatever reason* I had never saved these resources (and ETs) for future reference.

DCH

* I had a pretty rough period between 2003 & 2006 when I was traveling extensively for an employer who had every second of my time planned out, and paid me next to nothing. Felt like one of those movie plots where the criminal makes people follow an impossible schedule to prevent a bomb from exploding in a school or something.
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Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

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Papias after Marcion(ism)
Eisler's repunctuation of the Fortunatian prologue. Papias reports Marcion sent letters to the Marcionite communities. Hence Papias lived and reported after this happened.
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