Papias

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Papias

Post by Ben C. Smith »

perseusomega9 wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:13 am
Papias in his second book says that John the Divine and James his brother were killed by the Jews.

The aforesaid Papias stated on the authority of the daughters of Philip that Barsabas, who is also called Justus, when challenged by the unbelievers drank serpent’s poison in the name of the Lord, and was shielded from all harm. He makes also other marvelous statements, and particularly about the mother of Manaim who was raised from the dead. As for those who were raised from the dead by Christ, (he states) that they survived till the time of Hadrian.
I've heard some doubt the accuracy of this because the title "the divine" is anachronistic for Papias, but could that have just been a clarifying detail added by Phillip of Side?
Yes, I would not hold the descriptor "the theologian" against this datum, since it is set up with ὅτι ("that") as a paraphrase right from the start.
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Re: Papias

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gmx wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:01 pm As I have said in multiple places recently, I have doubts that the writings of Papias contained explanations of the sayings of Jesus. I don't believe we have, in the limited quotations available, any such example, which I find somewhat curious.
I am aware of a couple of reported sayings about a superabundant earthly kingdom with prime real estate:

Irenaeus AH 5.33.3: [Papias says Jesus spoke of] "The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, "I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me."

In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees, and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); "

The similarity to the text of 2 Baruch 2:5 is close: "The earth also shall yield its fruit ten thousandfold, and on each (?)vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cor of wine."

Irenaeus 5.36. "1 And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy.

2 [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions."

2 Enoch 61: "1 And now, my children, keep your hearts from every injustice, which the Lord hates. just as a man asks ([sc.] something) for his own
2 soul from God, so let him do to every living soul, because I know all things, how in the great time ([sc.] to come) are many mansions prepared for men, good for the good, and bad for the bad, without number many.
3 Blessed are those who enter the good houses, for in the bad ([sc.] houses) there is no peace nor return ([sc.] from them)."

Seems that these apocryphal texts could represent concepts that were common oral stories, maybe not spoken by Jesus but popular beliefs about the messianic age among segments of the population, that came to the attention of Papias. Papias seemed to be reacting to the appearance of written "gospels," not agreeing with the way that they made Jesus appear to be a tragic hero whose death was actually an act of vicarious atonement, rather than as a prophet of a superabundant future messianic age as predicted by Hebrew scriptures.

Those guys ...

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Re: Papias

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DC wrote:
Irenaeus AH 5.33.3: [Papias says Jesus spoke of] "The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, "I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me."

In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees, and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); "

The similarity to the text of 2 Baruch 2:5 is close: "The earth also shall yield its fruit ten thousandfold, and on each (?)vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cor of wine."
I'm starting to think that Papias could have heard about this saying from Aristion or John the elder and that they ascribed the saying to Jesus because he is like the Danielic son of man figure in 2 Baruch. The dating of 2 Baruch (c. 70 CE to 135 CE) fits the time of Papias (c. 100 CE in my view), and since Jesus is the "son of man" for Christians, then Christians living c. 70 CE to 135 CE could have naturally enough understood the son of man figure in 2 Baruch to be Jesus (whether or not the author viewed the figure as being Jesus). Or maybe Aristion or John the elder wrote 2 Baruch or were aware of traditions that wound up later being incorporated into it. As Reynolds notes:
... 2 Baruch depicts the Danielic son of man as more obviously messianic and pre-existent ... the interpretation of the 'one like a son of man' in 2 Baruch shares numerous similarities with the Jewish apocalyptic interpretations of the Danielic figure in the Similitudes of Enoch and 4 Ezra.

https://books.google.com/books?id=S_lMR ... AN&f=false


Since Christians and the Dead Sea Scrolls sect are the only people we know who used Enoch, and 2 Baruch strikes me as being similar to both groups (which in my view could be the same sect in some respects), I don't see why 2 Baruch couldn't have been written by a post-70 CE Jewish Christian. Take 30.1-5 for example (and pretend you don't know it is from 2 Baruch):
1 And it shall come to pass after these things, when the time of the advent of the Messiah is fulfilled, that He shall return in glory. 2 Then all who have fallen asleep in hope of Him shall rise again. And it shall come to pass at that time that the treasuries will be opened in which is preserved the number of the souls of the righteous, and they shall come forth, and a multitude of souls shall be seen together in one assemblage of one thought, and the first shall rejoice and the last shall not be grieved. 3 For they know that the time has come of which it is said, that it is the consummation of the times. 4 But the souls of the wicked, when they behold all these things, shall then waste away the more. 5 For they shall know that their torment has come and their perdition has arrived.
Just replace Jesus for (or interpret him as being) the Messiah here (and throughout 2 Baruch) and how is this not exactly what Christians believe (and all the more so given the Messiah's association with the "son of man")? If it's Jewish, messianic and sounds like Enoch and Christianity, then why couldn't it be called (or have been understood by people like Aristion, John the elder and Papias to be) "Jewish Christian"?

EH 3.39.7:
7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Papias

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Young writes:
The proportions in 1 Enoch are multiplied in the similar passage in 2 Bar. 29.5, possibly composed in Papias' lifetime ... Papias 1.5 also has parallels in Jewish eschatological literature. In this verse Jesus replies to Judas' unbelieving question about how the Lord could bring about the fruit described in vv. 2-3 with the words, "Those who come into those times will see." As noted by Charles Hill, "This sounds like the view of 4 Ezra (7.28; 13.24), in which the Messiah's kingdom is 'seen' only by the last generation of humans, who 'live until those times ...' "

https://books.google.com/books?id=bY_z7 ... as&f=false
And Hill writes:
... we may be confident that Papias' report originated in quarters thoroughly steeped in the type of Jewish apocalyptic piety that is reflected in 2 Baruch. Another possible indicator of the influence of 2 Baruch is Irenaeus's reference to the fructifying "dew of heaven'" in AH V.33.3 just before his quotation of Papias's oracle. This seems to reflect the similar phrase "dew of health" in 2Bar 29.7, which occurs just after the passage that parallels Papias.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hTjxq ... as&f=false
All we need to do is suppose that the "quarters thoroughly steeped in the type of Jewish apocalyptic piety that is reflected in 2 Baruch" and in Papias' saying were Jewish Christians (perhaps even Aristion or John the elder).
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Re: Papias

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John2 wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:27 pm Young writes:
The proportions in 1 Enoch are multiplied in the similar passage in 2 Bar. 29.5, possibly composed in Papias' lifetime ... Papias 1.5 also has parallels in Jewish eschatological literature. In this verse Jesus replies to Judas' unbelieving question about how the Lord could bring about the fruit described in vv. 2-3 with the words, "Those who come into those times will see." As noted by Charles Hill, "This sounds like the view of 4 Ezra (7.28; 13.24), in which the Messiah's kingdom is 'seen' only by the last generation of humans, who 'live until those times ...' "

https://books.google.com/books?id=bY_z7 ... as&f=false
And Hill writes:
... we may be confident that Papias' report originated in quarters thoroughly steeped in the type of Jewish apocalyptic piety that is reflected in 2 Baruch. Another possible indicator of the influence of 2 Baruch is Irenaeus's reference to the fructifying "dew of heaven'" in AH V.33.3 just before his quotation of Papias's oracle. This seems to reflect the similar phrase "dew of health" in 2Bar 29.7, which occurs just after the passage that parallels Papias.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hTjxq ... as&f=false
All we need to do is suppose that the "quarters thoroughly steeped in the type of Jewish apocalyptic piety that is reflected in 2 Baruch" and in Papias' saying were Jewish Christians (perhaps even Aristion or John the elder).
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Re: Papias

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John2 wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:27 pm Young writes:
The proportions in 1 Enoch are multiplied in the similar passage in 2 Bar. 29.5, possibly composed in Papias' lifetime ... Papias 1.5 also has parallels in Jewish eschatological literature. In this verse Jesus replies to Judas' unbelieving question about how the Lord could bring about the fruit described in vv. 2-3 with the words, "Those who come into those times will see." As noted by Charles Hill, "This sounds like the view of 4 Ezra (7.28; 13.24), in which the Messiah's kingdom is 'seen' only by the last generation of humans, who 'live until those times ...' "

https://books.google.com/books?id=bY_z7 ... as&f=false
And Hill writes:
... we may be confident that Papias' report originated in quarters thoroughly steeped in the type of Jewish apocalyptic piety that is reflected in 2 Baruch. Another possible indicator of the influence of 2 Baruch is Irenaeus's reference to the fructifying "dew of heaven'" in AH V.33.3 just before his quotation of Papias's oracle. This seems to reflect the similar phrase "dew of health" in 2Bar 29.7, which occurs just after the passage that parallels Papias.

https://books.google.com/books?id=hTjxq ... as&f=false
There seemed to have been several competing versions of the end times and the "messianic" kingdom. In some the age on earth is just 400 years, others a millennium, others still saw a heavenly based kingdom.*

In some the messianic kingdom to be is to be established by men, and like any earthly government, coming down hard on the gentiles, defeating their armies and afterwards ruling with an iron rod. In other words, it would defeat the Roman empire by human efforts, perhaps aided by God's angels, maybe not, and replace the Roman empire with a just Judean led empire. On account of the justness of this empire's rule, the earth will yield its fruit abundantly again, like it did in the garden of Eden.

In others, it is brought about and maintained by God's agency alone, with his armies of angels defeating the Romans and establishing a new world order where there would be no more war and injustice, but peace and prosperity, with the earth again being fruitful as in the days of the garden of Eden.

Papias seems to have leaned towards the 1000 year earthly kingdom, one established by God's agency alone. I don't see any war talk, just the abundance of it. In Eusebius' day, these concepts had been replaced by one where God creates a heavenly kingdom and calls the saints up to him, both living and the dead. There were no longer good empires versus bad empires, which could offend their patron, Constantine.

When Constantine first started courting Christians he was in the NW part of the empire. One of his female relations was a Christian, I think, and he knew there were a lot of them around the empire, and they were ready to push back against the official harassment they had experienced for a very long time. So they kind of needed one another.

So in the end, tradition is continually reinterpreted to accommodate the spirits of each age. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis. We should not become alarmed by this evolution of the traditions.

From our POV, the difference in opinions between Papias & Eusebius seems tiny thing way at the far end of our field of vision. But in their time, quite a lot of things were going on, and over a considerable period of time.

DCH

* There is a nice analysis of Judean messianic ideas in vol II of the Revised English translation of Emil Schurer's The History of the Jewish people in the age of Jesus Christ (1979). I wonder why these four volumes (I, II, III.1 & III.2) never came out in Paperback. Same with the Anchor Bible Dictionary. They are just so helpful.
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Re: Papias

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DCHindley wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:11 pmThere seemed to have been several competing versions of the end times and the "messianic" kingdom. In some the age on earth is just 400 years, others a millennium, others still saw a heavenly based kingdom.
The Talmud lists a few variants on the number of years involved:

Talmud, Sanhedrin 99a:

It has been taught: R. Eliezer said: The days of the Messiah will last forty years, as it is written, Forty years long shall I take hold of the generation. R. Eleazar b. Azariah said: Seventy years, as it is written, And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king. Now, who is the one [uniquely distinguished] king? The Messiah, of course. Rabbi said: Three generations; for it is written, They shall fear thee with the sun, and before the moon [they shall fear thee], a generation and generations.

R. Hillel said: There shall be no Messiah for Israel, because they have already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah. R. Joseph said: May God forgive him [for saying so]. Now, when did Hezekiah flourish? During the first Temple. Yet Zechariah, prophesying in the days of the second, proclaimed, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem, behold, thy king cometh unto thee! he is just, and having salvation, lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Another [Baraitha] taught: R. Eliezer said: The days of the Messiah will be forty years. Here it is written, And he afflicted thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna; whilst elsewhere it is written, Make us glad, according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us. R. Dosa said: Four hundred years. It is here written, And they shall serve them,’ and they shall afflict them four hundred years; whilst elsewhere it is written, Make us glad, according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us. Rabbi said: Three hundred and sixty-five years, even as the days of the solar year, as it is written, For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redemption is come. What is meant by ‘the day of vengeance is in mine heart’? — R. Johanan said: I have [so to speak] revealed it to my heart, but not to my [outer] limbs. Abimi the son of R. Abbahu learned: The days of Israel's Messiah shall be seven thousand years, as it is written, And as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. Rab Judah said in Samuel's name: The days of the Messiah shall endure as long as from the Creation until now, as it is written, [That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give to them,] as the days of heaven upon the earth. R. Nahman b. Isaac said: As long as from Noah's days until our own, as it is written, For this is as the waters of Noah, which are mine, so I have sworn, and the rest.

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Re: Papias

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I'm starting to think that 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra were written by post-70 CE Fourth Philosophers. I think this is the reason why they strike me as being so similar to the Dead Sea Scrolls (which include Enoch, which 2 Bar. and 4 Ezra are based on and which Christians used) and Jewish Christianity. 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra are post-70 CE continuations of Fourth Philosophic apocalyptic messianism.

Just like pre-70 CE Fourth Philosophic factions (and thus the Dead Sea Scrolls, the vast majority of which are dated to the Herodian era, when the Fourth Philosophy was active) resemble Jewish Christianity to me (with a strong interest in Daniel and messianism being the main similarity), so too do 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra. In other words, I think if they weren't written by post-70 CE Jewish Christians then they were probably written by some other post-70 CE Fourth Philosophic faction(s).

I used to think that 4 Ezra was "contaminated" by later Christians, but as I take a fresh look at it (and various commentaries) it does not strike me that way anymore. I think the similarities it shares with Christianity are due to these being ideas that were common to more or less all Fourth Philosophers, those whom Josephus says were interested in the idea that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." I think 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra were written by people like that, after 70 CE (just like other post-70 CE Fourth Philosophic writings, i.e., Christian writings). This is why I think it is difficult to distinguish them from Jewish (i.e., Torah-keeping) Christianity. Take 4 Ezra 7.28-45, for example:
[28]For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years.
[29] And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath.
[30] And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left.
[31] And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish.
[32] And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them.
[33] And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn;
[34] but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong.
[35] And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep.
[36] Then the pit of torment shall appear, and opposite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of hell shall be disclosed, and opposite it the paradise of delight.
[37] Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, `Look now, and understand whom you have denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have despised!
[38] Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are fire and torments!' Thus he will speak to them on the day of judgment --
[39] a day that has no sun or moon or stars,
[40] or cloud or thunder or lightning or wind or water or air, or darkness or evening or morning,
[41] or summer or spring or heat or winter or frost or cold or hail or rain or dew,
[42] or noon or night, or dawn or shining or brightness or light, but only the splendor of the glory of the Most High, by which all shall see what has been determined for them.
[43] For it will last for about a week of years.
[44] This is my judgment and its prescribed order; and to you alone have I shown these things."
[45] I answered and said, "O sovereign Lord, I said then and I say now: Blessed are those who are alive and keep thy commandments!
Last edited by John2 on Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Papias

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This would explain why Papias (or Aristion or John the elder or whoever else) were under the impression that the saying about the thousand branches and such in 2 Baruch pertained to Jesus (though perhaps it pertained to Jesus in the mind of the author as well).

2 Bar. 29:3-30:5:
3. ... the Messiah shall then begin to be revealed. 4 And Behemoth shall be revealed from his place and Leviathan shall ascend from the sea, those two great monsters which I created on the fifth day of creation, and shall have kept until that time; and then they shall be for food for all that are left. 5 The earth also shall yield its fruit ten-thousandfold and on each (?) vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cor of wine. 6 And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also, they shall behold marvels every day. 7 For winds shall go forth from before Me to bring every morning the fragrance of aromatic fruits, and at the close of the day clouds distilling the dew of health. 8 And it shall come to pass at that self-same time that the treasury of manna shall again descend from on high, and they will eat of it in those years, because these are they who have come to the consummation of time.

30 1 And it shall come to pass after these things, when the time of the advent of the Messiah is fulfilled, that He shall return in glory.

2 Then all who have fallen asleep in hope of Him shall rise again
. And it shall come to pass at that time that the treasuries will be opened in which is preserved the number of the souls of the righteous, and they shall come forth, and a multitude of souls shall be seen together in one assemblage of one thought, and the first shall rejoice and the last shall not be grieved. 3 For they know that the time has come of which it is said, that it is the consummation of the times. 4 But the souls of the wicked, when they behold all these things, shall then waste away the more. 5 For they shall know that their torment has come and their perdition has arrived.'
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Re: Papias

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John2 wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:58 pm
I used to think that 4 Ezra was "contaminated" by later Christians, but as I take a fresh look at it (and various commentaries) it does not strike me that way anymore. I think the similarities it shares with Christianity are due to these being ideas that were common to more or less all Fourth Philosophers, those whom Josephus says were interested in the idea that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." I think 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra were written by people like that, after 70 CE (just like other post-70 CE Fourth Philosophic writings, i.e., Christian writings). This is why I think it is difficult to distinguish them from Jewish (i.e., Torah-keeping) Christianity.
I think there are a lot of inter-testamentary philosophies and texts that did not reflect Christianity but contributed to it ie. the scope and number of such texts are much greater than has been considered previously.
John2 wrote: Take 4 Ezra 7.28-45, for example:

[28]For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years.
[29] And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath.
- - - -
[33] And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn;
[34] but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong.
[35] And recompense shall follow, and the reward shall be manifested; righteous deeds shall awake, and unrighteous deeds shall not sleep.
----
[37] Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, `Look now, and understand whom you have denied, whom you have not served, whose commandments you have despised!
----
[44] This is my judgment and its prescribed order; and to you alone have I shown these things."
[45] I answered and said, "O sovereign Lord, I said then and I say now: Blessed are those who are alive and keep thy commandments!
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