Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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stephan happy huller
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by stephan happy huller »

I noticed something in a side by side comparison of the two texts which I have noticed before. In De Carne Christi we read:
In such a case he was a phantasm even after the resurrection when he offered his hands and feet for his disciples to examine, saying, Behold that I am I, because a spirit hath not bones as ye see me having - undoubtedly meaning hands and feet and bones which a spirit has not but flesh has. How do you interpret this saying, Marcion, when you deduce Jesus from a god who is supremely good and candid and free from all evil?
If we just read this single line we might not notice that the author does not cite the rest of Luke but only (weakly) implies that hands and feet are meant. It is only in the parallel text of Against Marcion that we learn that the Marcionite text did not have the hands and feet reference only this single line.

If we are to trace the new argument in Against Marcion, the author (or editor) begins by citing Psalms 22:16 "they pierced my hands and feet" and then proceeds
Now concerning the verity of his body, what could be clearer? When they were in doubt whether he were not a phantasm, or even supposed that he was a phantasm, he said to them, Why are ye troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts ? Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: for a spirit hath not bones, as ye see me having. Now here Marcion, on purpose I believe, has abstained from crossing out of his gospel certain matters opposed to him, hoping that in view of these which he might have crossed out and has not, he may be thought not to have crossed out those which he has crossed out, or even to have crossed them out with good reason. But he is only sparing to statements which he proceeds to overturn by strange interpretation no less than by deletion. He will have it then that <the words> A spirit hath not bones as ye see me having, were so spoken as to be referred to the spirit, 'as ye see me having', meaning, not having bones, even as a spirit has not. And what sense would there be in such a round-about way of putting it, when he might have said quite plainly, For a spirit hath not bones, as ye see that I have not'? Why again did he offer his hands and feet for them to examine—and these members consist of bones—if he had no bones? Why does he add, And know that it is I myself, though of course they knew beforehand that he had a body? Or else, if he was in every respect a phantasm, why did he upbraid them for thinking him a phantasm?
And yet, while they still believed not, he asked them for food, so as to show that he even had teeth.

But if you actually look at what is in this new material it becomes increasingly clear what happened. The author/editor saw the original reference which agreed with the Marcionites (because they apparently shared a very similar gospel) that there was only this one line:
ψηλαφήσατέ με καὶ ἴδετε, ὅτι πνεῦμα ὀστέα οὐκ ἔχει, καθὼς ἐμὲ θεωρεῖτε ἔχοντα.
and from that the original author said something like "surely this means hands and feet" as we still see in De Carne Christi. Indeed De Carne Christi just leaves open the question of how the Marcionites interpreted the passage.

But as we just saw with the 'blessed is the womb' (a saying which only appears in Luke and was stripped away from its original context with 'behold your mother and brothers stand outside') and 'behold your mother and brothers stand outside' Luke has gone out of its way to 'allow' for these sayings (i.e. they are 'retained' in Luke) but only under very careful conditions. In the case of 'behold your mother and brothers stand outside' some of the original material has been removed and now the narrator of the gospel (= 'Luke') adds by way of emphasis that the mother and brothers were REALLY outside. Now again with respect to "Behold that I am I, because a spirit hath not bones as ye see me having" all the stuff that the original author of the Against Marcion material 'supposes' to be true (i.e. 'he MUST HAVE MEANT hands and feet' now literally appear in the reconstructed narrative:
While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. , He said to them “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
Now with respect to the objection of the author/editor of Against Marcion that the language here is clunky - that may be so in Greek but as is often the case with material only found in Luke, it seems to have its basis in Hebrew or reflects what we might call Hebraisms. Notice the 'Shalom' at the beginning of the narrative and then we see a negative followed by a conjunction. The same situation occurs in Hebrew often times only the conjunction there is כִּי

Take the example of Genesis 42:16:
וְאִם-לֹא--חֵי פַרְעֹה, כִּי מְרַגְּלִים אַתֶּם
.

It is true that the LXX does not translate the subjunctive either here or in verse 15 but the pattern of a subordinate followed by an imperative is a clear indication of Hebrew syntax.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by stephan happy huller »

Actually I didn't notice the difference in the two citations:

Behold that I am I, because a spirit hath not bones as ye see me having (De Carne)

A spirit hath not bones as ye see me having (Against Marcion)

but our Luke:

πνεῦμα σάρκα καὶ ὀστέα (flesh and bones) οὐκ ἔχει καθὼς ἐμὲ θεωρεῖτε ἔχοντα

I notice that Epiphanius has ὅτι πνεῦμα ὀστέα οὐκ ἔχει, καθὼς ἐμὲ θεωρεῖτε ἔχοντα and Bezae τὸ πνεῦμα ὀστέα οὐκ ἔχει καὶ σάρκας καθὼς ἐμὲ βλέπετε ἔχοντα (which seems to add 'flesh' as an afterthought).

But clearly both De Carne Christi and Against Marcion are related. I think Epiphanius used the Greek source behind Against Marcion.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by stephan happy huller »

But is there an example in Hebrew which exactly follows this formula?

A human has not whiskers and a tail, as you see me have.

A man does not wear pantyhose, as you see me have.

A sophisticated person does not walk around in a sports jersey, as you see me have.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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When you imagine the sentence in the Marcion gospel on its own rather than as part of a narrative where disciples are physically touching Jesus's hands and feet - i.e. just him saying:
for a spirit hath not bones as ye see me having
The idea of merely 'seeing' Jesus 'having bones' and thus disqualifying him from being a 'spirit' is rather odd. Even if you pretend it was part of a 'touching' narrative, it is a very odd thing to say. 'Flesh' or even 'flesh and bones' would be more natural. What could 'bones' mean here? Could it be a translation of עֲצָמֶיהָ:
Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body (עֲצָמֶיהָ) than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire
This might explain the Gospel according to the Hebrews saying copied by Jerome (Illustrious Men 16):
In it he also inserts a testimony about the person of Christ, from the Gospel which was lately translated by me; his words are: But I both saw him (this is wrongly quoted) in the flesh after the resurrection, and believe that he is in the flesh: and when he came to Peter and those who were with Peter, he said to them: Lo, feel me and see that I am not a bodiless spirit (demon). And forthwith they touched him and believed.
Ignatius, to the Smyrnaeans, 3, 1, really says: For I know, and I believe that he is in the flesh even after his resurrection. The plural of the Hebrew word can mean 'limbs,' 'bones,' or 'body.' It is also a very significant word in Pauline Christianity - i.e. μέλη - and Manichaeanism denoting the priests of the religion (i.e. the living bodies of Jesus).

in Kephalaion XXXVIII it is stated that, according to Mani, this Light Mind or Νοῦς enters into the Elect and transforms ‘the old man’ into ‘the new man’ by freeing the five intellectual qualities of mind, thought, insight, counsel and consideration. In this way the Manichaean Elect is transformed into ‘a new man’, which transformation purifies his spiritual intellect so that he can ascend in his heart to God the Father. There even seems to be a text in which God is described as consisting of five great light limbs (μέλη), whilst each of these limbs is connected with an element (light, perfume, voice, etc.) that can be perceived by one of the five senses.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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stephan happy huller wrote:... The idea that the census [of Quirinus and/or Luke] could still be available at the time of Against Marcion 4 ...
is Tertullian's pipe dream. He is assuming what needs to be proved. A census is used to determine who owes taxes and how much, and once this baseline is set (say, every 14 or so years), the summarized records are amended as things change until the next one. This stuff is not shipped to Rome for storage among sacred papers and legislation, but remains squarely in the province surveyed, and then only in summary form. Presumably, anything relating to Judea would remain in Judea, and these tax records were probably burned in the revolt along with records of debts owed.

I can say that the Aramaic Essene Gospel of Peace "translated" by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely still exists in the secret Vatican archives, if only they tried to search for it. But of course no one will ever find it there, and the failure of such an attempt can always be explained away.

DCH
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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Baarda is really busy putting together his critical edition of the Martyrium Marci so I didn't want to press him too much on this but he did mention this:
Did you see W. Bauer, Das Leben Jesu im Zeitalter der neutestamentlichen Apokryphen, 1909 (reprint Darmstadt, 1967), 260) on this passage in Marcion?
I hope this might be sufficient.
I also noted this in Jastrow:
כ prefix, h. a. ch. (v. 1)כן as, like. Targ. Gen.IX, 3. Targ. Hos. IV, 9; a. v. fr.—Ber. I, 2 כאדם וכי like one reading in the Torah. Ib. 3כדרכו as usual; a. v. fr. —*2) whereas. Tosef. Snh. II, 6 כגוזלייא.. .וכאימרייא וכי ed. Zuck. (Var. ,דגוילייא . ..ואמרייא as Snh. 1 la, Y. ib. 1,18d top) whereas the spring pigeons are yet tender &c.—
From my working with Jastrow the asterisk (*) is used whenever a corruption has entered the language. As such what he says is that in effect, the prefix kaf is properly defined as 'as, like' (as in Hebrew) but that in Aramaic there is a tendency to use the prefix wrongly as 'whereas' meaning I suppose that the prefix is used to juxtapose one idea to another.

Could it be then that the dispute between the Marcionites and Catholics comes down to whether the original sentence read:

Behold that I am I, because a spirit hath not bones as ye see me having

and

Behold that I am I, because a spirit hath not bones whereas ye see me having (them)

I am still not satisfied with this answer but it is at least a start. I can't see how the first example could be distinguished from the second. I have reached the outer limits of my knowledge. It happens quite a lot.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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The Babylonian Talmud renders the text (in English):

R. Jannai [gave the following example of the law in operation], quoting from R. Simeon b. Gamaliel's [letter to the Communities]: 'We beg to inform you that the doves are still tender and the lambs still young, and the grain has not yet ripened. I have considered the matter and thought it advisable to add thirty days to the year. (i.e. without the prefix)

The suggestion seems to be that kaf used as a prefix in the earliest documents juxtaposed the practice of others from that of Simeon b. Gamaliel's community. The implication for our discussion is that in near contemporary Aramaic kaf as a prefix could either have been interpreted:

"as you see I have"

or

"whereas you see I have"

Does that help?
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

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I still can't find the original Aramaic text but when I look at Neusner and Chilton's English translation (and thus see the original context) it seems that 'but' would be the correct translation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HOv1HY ... to&f=false
'To our brethren, residents of the upper south and residents of the lower south, May your peace increase! We inform you that the time for the removal has come, to set apart the tithes from the sheaves of grain. To our brethren, residents of the Exile of Babylonia, and residents of the Exile of Media, and of all the other Exiles of Israel, may your peace increase! We inform you that the pigeons are still tender, the lambs are thin, and the spring tide has not yet come. So, as it is proper in my view and in the view of my colleagues, we have added thirty days to this year'
I think this is very significant because it is surprising. The 'we inform you' really should be read as 'but' or 'however' we inform you' because of the kaf prefix.
'To our brethren, residents of the upper south and residents of the lower south, May your peace increase! We inform you that the time for the removal has come, to set apart the tithes from the sheaves of grain. To our brethren, residents of the Exile of Babylonia, and residents of the Exile of Media, and of all the other Exiles of Israel, may your peace increase! However we inform you that the pigeons are still tender, the lambs are thin, and the spring tide has not yet come. So, as it is proper in my view and in the view of my colleagues, we have added thirty days to this year'
The sentence in the Aramaic gospel then - if it existed would read:
however you see I have
I am still not sure this has any particular relevance but it is again a start. The usual use for kaf (or in this case 'chaf' because of the dot) is Genesis 1:26 reads: “Va’yomer Eh-lohim, na’aseh adam b’tzal'maynu kid’moo'tainu...” And God said "‘Let us make Adam in our image, like our likeness.”
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by stephan happy huller »

It is also strange that Ignatius and Jerome have the Hebrew text say "I am not a bodiless demon' whereas Luke has 'A spirit has not bones' unless as I noted the text was in Hebrew and the word for 'bones' could also mean 'body' (see above). It would seem everyone was loosely translating a lost original text. My guess is that something in the first part of the sentence allowed the Marcionites to think something which the Catholics found very troubling.
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Re: Earthly Stranger vs Heavenly Stranger

Post by stephan happy huller »

I have been thinking all day if - as most or many have surmised - this goes back to a Hebrew original whether 'to see' was ra'ah and the original sense was:
because a spirit hath not bones as ye perceive me to have
in other words Jesus is finally correcting the disciples about their presumption that he was a man of flesh and blood. The likely context would be preceding the Transfiguration. This is why I surmise Jerome and Ignatius paraphrased the 'proper' (or 'accepted') sense of the text in their translation. Is this a stretch? I will spell out the theoretical Hebrew text over the weekend. But ra'ah has this meaning like God 'saw' it was good in Genesis. It is about perception as much as it is physically seeing an object. The next question is whether ra'ah is rendered θεωρέω or βλέπω (Bezae) in the LXX. Yes, yes.
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