This is a Split from the "Mark as Collection of Notes" Thread. There is a subtle Set of Notes in the other Gospels the point to another Theme that appears as a Historical Marker.
Mark 6: 39 (RSV):
[39] Then he commanded them all to sit down by companies upon the green grass.
There is a curious reference here: "Green Grass". Is this in the Spring, as in Passover? Is this a reference to the Roman Warming period?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Warm_Period
Consider the verse in the other Thread:
John 3: 24 (RSV):
[23] John also was baptizing at Ae'non near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized.
This is much different from John 4: 11 - 12 (RSV):
[11] The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep; where do you get that living water?
[12] Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, and his sons, and his cattle?"
You don't water cattle and have enough for your families if the well is deep and you are barely able to fill a gourd with water.
Mark 9: 42 (RSV):
[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
I believe that this is a Herod Story (See also: Matthew 7). There is a blistering famine ravaging Judea and Herod hocks everything of value in the Palace to be able to buy grain from Petronius, Procurator of Egypt:
Matthew 7: 9 - 10 (RSV):
[9] Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
The Story is playing out in a land that was verdant but is now approaching desert like conditions. "Living Water" is possibly a reference found in Berakoth 28A - if memory serves - but there is a subtext through all of this. Everything is changing. The Priesthood, triumphant, faces a Transcendent Power in the Romans. They will not survive. Even the Weather changes. The crops that used to grow do not grow anymore.
"Five cent cotton and forty cent meat
How in the hell can a poor man eat?"
CW
"How's the Weather?"
Re: "How's the Weather?"
The Roman Warm Period peaked apparently around 150 AD. That curiously 140-190 is roughly when those who place the NT mostly in the 2nd century -based on the controversies alluded to- suspect the gospels were written.
Curiously my own estimated publish dates of Matthew, John and Mark align with the peak time frame of warming, the latter two even a decade after. But living in California I am well aware that drought conditions persist well past peak. The driest time was likely a decade or two past peak warming, as the rains would still be below replenishing levels until later. (Imagine a sign curve, where the x-axis and below are sufficient or more rain to replenish wells, and above they still deplete, with 150 AD the peak on the y-axis; obviously depletion continues until the wave falls below the equilibrium line again.)
Not putting any weight on this. But curious how it aligns with my own rough timeline.
Curiously my own estimated publish dates of Matthew, John and Mark align with the peak time frame of warming, the latter two even a decade after. But living in California I am well aware that drought conditions persist well past peak. The driest time was likely a decade or two past peak warming, as the rains would still be below replenishing levels until later. (Imagine a sign curve, where the x-axis and below are sufficient or more rain to replenish wells, and above they still deplete, with 150 AD the peak on the y-axis; obviously depletion continues until the wave falls below the equilibrium line again.)
Not putting any weight on this. But curious how it aligns with my own rough timeline.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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Charles Wilson
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Re: "How's the Weather?"
Stuart --
I think you should put a little weight on your findings
Mark 8: 1 - 4 (RSV):
[1] In those days, when again a great crowd had gathered, and they had nothing to eat, he called his disciples to him, and said to them,
[2] "I have compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three days, and have nothing to eat;
[3] and if I send them away hungry to their homes, they will faint on the way; and some of them have come a long way."
[4] And his disciples answered him, "How can one feed these men with bread here in the desert?"
The contrast with the Feeding of the 5000 is intriguing.
Mark 6: 39 - 40 (RSV):
[39] Then he commanded them all to sit down by companies upon the green grass.
[40] So they sat down in groups, by hundreds and by fifties.
The 4000 Section begins with "In those days...", a Tell from someone writing about an event from a position much later. The location is explicitly given as being a desert. It didn't used to be. (BTW, I don't assume that statements given about conditions are veridical. The woman by the well in John may have HEARD that there was an earlier time when the deep well fed cattle and families but that does mean it was so. Assuming she existed. Etc.). So much for the Land of Milk and Honey.
Note as well the "Kindness". "I have compassion on the crowd". (Note: "ON" the crowd?). When we get to the 5000 we have almost a military view: "Then he commanded them all to sit down by companies". Josephus tells of Titus organizing his generals and troops in preparing for the Assault on the Temple. I might edit this later but plz "Consult the Literature".
It is here that the curious "Green Grass" quote appears. I have puzzled over this for some time. I would expect green grass to appear in the 4000 Section and not here in the 5000 section. That there were gardens and pleasing plant growth in Jerusalem is given. By this time, it may have been a garden in the desert.
I don't doubt that you are correct here, Stuart. Good work. Someone is writing towards the end of the Roman Warming. I believe that Mark was written no earlier than 98, more probably towards 110. We do have a Fragment of John that is plausibly dated to around 125. These authors, from a distance, may have easily seen Judea as a desert and assumed that "For our purposes, thus it ever was", or close to it.
There is more here.
CW
I think you should put a little weight on your findings
Mark 8: 1 - 4 (RSV):
[1] In those days, when again a great crowd had gathered, and they had nothing to eat, he called his disciples to him, and said to them,
[2] "I have compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three days, and have nothing to eat;
[3] and if I send them away hungry to their homes, they will faint on the way; and some of them have come a long way."
[4] And his disciples answered him, "How can one feed these men with bread here in the desert?"
The contrast with the Feeding of the 5000 is intriguing.
Mark 6: 39 - 40 (RSV):
[39] Then he commanded them all to sit down by companies upon the green grass.
[40] So they sat down in groups, by hundreds and by fifties.
The 4000 Section begins with "In those days...", a Tell from someone writing about an event from a position much later. The location is explicitly given as being a desert. It didn't used to be. (BTW, I don't assume that statements given about conditions are veridical. The woman by the well in John may have HEARD that there was an earlier time when the deep well fed cattle and families but that does mean it was so. Assuming she existed. Etc.). So much for the Land of Milk and Honey.
Note as well the "Kindness". "I have compassion on the crowd". (Note: "ON" the crowd?). When we get to the 5000 we have almost a military view: "Then he commanded them all to sit down by companies". Josephus tells of Titus organizing his generals and troops in preparing for the Assault on the Temple. I might edit this later but plz "Consult the Literature".
It is here that the curious "Green Grass" quote appears. I have puzzled over this for some time. I would expect green grass to appear in the 4000 Section and not here in the 5000 section. That there were gardens and pleasing plant growth in Jerusalem is given. By this time, it may have been a garden in the desert.
I don't doubt that you are correct here, Stuart. Good work. Someone is writing towards the end of the Roman Warming. I believe that Mark was written no earlier than 98, more probably towards 110. We do have a Fragment of John that is plausibly dated to around 125. These authors, from a distance, may have easily seen Judea as a desert and assumed that "For our purposes, thus it ever was", or close to it.
There is more here.
CW