Why "Egypt" is "where also their Lord was crucified"

[Irish1975]

Why would the editors of NA28 prefer "the corpse of them," -- which seems like nonsense -- to "their bodies"? The latter is attested in the oldest manuscripts, but more importantly it makes grammatical sense.

If you are referring to "corpse/body" being singular, the so-called distributive singular is not uncommon in Greek (page 174, bottom paragraph). Other biblical examples include σῶμα αὐτῶν ("their body") in James 3.3 and πρόσωπον αὐτῶν ("their face") in Genesis 9.23, and there are quite a few others.

Thanks. I'm rusty with stuff like that.

[andrewcriddle]

In the Book of Revelation P47 and Codex Sinaiticus tend to agree with each other as representatives of one early text type.
In the Book of Revelation Codices A and C tend to agree with each other as representatives of another early text type.
(The above is true for the Book of Revelation only, it is not correct for the rest of the NT).

It is generally accepted by textual critics that the A and C text type is better than the P47 and Codex Sinaiticus text type, although the P47 and Codex Sinaiticus text type has earlier Greek manuscript attestation.

Andrew Criddle

[Bernard Muller]

As I exposed on another thread long ago:
I take verse 11:8 is part of the Jewish Revelation written soon after the events of 70 CE. That version was fairly coherent but the Christian interpolations, added around 90-95, messed up the whole thing but nevertheless formed the canonical version. That final version causes a lot a problems for commentators because they refuse to acknowledge that fact.
In that case the/our/their Lord means God.
And "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt" is Rome.
And God being crucified here is figurative. It means Rome made God suffer in 70 CE because of the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple, and the massacre & enslavement of many Jews.
All of that is fully demonstrated & explained in http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html

Cordially, Bernard

[klewis]

Okay, here is my take, on how "Egypt" came into the Revelation 11 and I hope it will help, not in looking at the manuscripts after it was written but in how Revelation was written before it was published.

As always, I am trying to reduce about 30 pages of details into a single post. So I apologize for this in advance.

In every draft, but the Exodus draft, that John composed, Revelation 11 meant Jerusalem. For understanding what I refer to as a draft, it is a logical unit of work in the process of writing Revelation. Each draft is derived by how John incorporated a single source into the book of Revelation using parallel formation. A summary of the process is found in the first chapter of my book linked below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QLNLgG ... sp=sharing

In the Zechariah draft, the second draft, the two prophets were symbolized by Joshua (Jesus) and Zerubbabel (see https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WpWPIk ... sqTHo/view). Note in the attached illustration how John formed Revelation chapter 11 and 12 as an inverted parallel with chapters 2 to 4 of Zechariah. This is an example of what I mean by parallel formation and it also shows that he meant for the two to be intertwined together as one cohesive unit.

In the Exodus Draft, John overlaid the many elements of Moses' life and the building of the tabernacle into Revelation (see page 6 & 10 of the attached document). It was also in the Exodus draft that John attributed some of the actions of Moses to the two prophets such as one of the plagues (see Exod 7:14 - 12:36 and Rev 11:6).

John also added Exodus 19:4 into Revelation 11:8 in which he associated Jerusalem as in the Jewish people that killed Jesus as Egyptians. So John assign the term Egypt to Jerusalem. He then moved the Eagle's wing over to 1260 day element of the 42 month, 1260 day, and 3 1/2 day parallel.

You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself (Exod 19:4 ESV).	And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 11:9 For three and a half days	12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time**
	11:15 “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and she shall reign forever and ever.”	12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now xthe salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come,

** In a later draft, the Daniel Draft, John switched the 42 months originally in Rev 12:14 with the text found in Dan 7:25. This can be plainly seen in how the Zechariah Draft constructed Revelation 11-12 (see https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WpWPIk ... sqTHo/view) and how John used Daniel 7:25 as seen in the table below:

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

Rev 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time

Please remember, that this is only the gist of how Revelation 11 came to be. There are many more parallels formed with Rev 11 and many additions not told in this post. Feel free to ask questions or clarifications.

[Ben C. Smith]

For my money, the "great city" in chapter 11 is Jerusalem, not Rome:

Revelation 11.8: 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

While Rome can certainly be described as a great city (and actually is elsewhere in Revelation), it would not be out of place to call Jerusalem by the same epithet:

Jeremiah 22.8: 8 Many nations will pass by this city; and they will say to one another, "Why has the Lord done thus to this great city [τῇ πόλει τῇ μεγάλῃ ταύτῃ]?"

Appian, Syrian Wars X.50: 50 .... The Jewish nation still resisted, and Pompey conquered them, sent their king, Aristobulus, to Rome, and destroyed Jerusalem, the greatest and, to them, holiest city [τὴν μεγίστην πόλιν Ἱεροσόλυμα καὶ ἁγιωτάτην αὐτοῖς], as Ptolemy, the first king of Egypt, had formerly done. ....

Josephus, Wars 7.8.7 §375: 375 And where is now the great city [ἡ μεγάλη πόλις], the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which vas fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it?

Josephus, Against Apion 1.22 §197, 209: 197 "There are many strong places and villages (says he) in the country of Judea; but one strong city there is, about fifty furlongs in circumference, which is inhabited by a hundred and twenty thousand humans, or thereabouts; they call it Jerusalem." .... 209 "There are a people called Jews, and dwell in a city the stoutest of all [ὀχυρωτάτην πασῶν] other cities, which the inhabitants call Jerusalem, and are accustomed to rest on every seventh day on which times they make no use of their arms, nor meddle with husbandry, nor take care of any affairs of life, but spread out their hands in their holy places, and pray till the evening."

Pliny, Natural History 5.15.70: 70 Beyond Idumea and Samaria, Judea extends far and wide. That part of it which joins up to Syria is called Galilea, while that which is nearest to Arabia and Egypt bears the name of Perea. This last is thickly covered with rugged mountains, and is separated from the rest of Judea by the river Jordanes. The remaining part of Judea is divided into ten Toparchies, which we will mention in the following order: that of Hiericus, covered with groves of palm-trees, and watered by numerous springs, and those of Emmaüs, Lydda, Joppe, Acrabatena, Gophna, Thamna, Bethleptephene, Orina, in which formerly stood Jerusalem, by far the most famous city, not of Judea only, but of the East [Hierosolyma, longe clarissima urbium orientis, non Iudaeae modo], and Herodium, with a celebrated town of the same name.

The prophets could also compare wayward Judeans to Sodom or (less commonly) to Egypt:

Isaiah 1.9-10: 9 Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a few survivors, we would be like Sodom; we would be like Gomorrah. 10 Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah.

Isaiah 3.9: 9 The expression of their faces bears witness against them, and they display their sin like Sodom; they do not even conceal it. Woe to them!

Amos 4.10: 10 "I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me," declares the Lord.

Deuteronomy 28.27, 60: 27 The Lord will smite you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors and with the scab and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. .... 60 He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you.

The clearest indicator within the verse itself, however, is that the great city is where the/their/our Lord was crucified. I do not buy this being some unique symbol of God's suffering at the hands of the Romans. More interesting would be the pairing of this passage (as Peter Kirby once suggested) with the passage in Suetonius about Chrestus, but that possibility would require a lot more argument, as well, I think, if it is to trump the more obvious option.

There are indicators outside of the verse, as well. The two witnesses, for example, are clearly modeled upon Elijah (who had "the power to shut up the sky," verse 6) and Moses (who had "power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague," idem). Elijah and Moses testifying in the heart of the Jewish homeland makes more sense than these two prophets testifying in Rome; furthermore, they clearly start off in Jerusalem ("the holy city," verse 2), and nowhere does the venue clearly change.

The 42 months of verse 2 and the 1260 days of verse 3 are probably supposed to be equivalent time frames; if a month is (about) 30 days, 1260 days = 30 days per month × 42 months. But 42 months = 3 years 6 months, or three and a half years, hearkening back to the prophet Daniel:

Daniel 7.25: 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

A time, (two) times, and half a time would make three and a half.

If a tenth of the city falling in verse 13 is supposed to line up numerically with the 7000 people who died (that is, if 7000 people are about a tenth of the population), then the numbers are more commensurate with the population of Jerusalem (estimated at 120,000 humans in that passage from Against Apion above) than with that of Rome (anywhere from half a million to a million inhabitants in century I, according to the estimates that I have seen, based partly on Res Gestae 15 and partly on geographical and archaeological considerations).

Interestingly, this earthquake is reminiscent of an event from the Roman war with Judea:

Josephus, Wars 4.4.5 §283-287: 283 And now did the Idumeans make an acclamation to what Simon had said; but Jesus went away sorrowful, as seeing that the Idumeans were against all moderate counsels, and that the city was besieged on both sides. 284 Nor indeed were the minds of the Idumeans at rest; for they were in a rage at the injury that had been offered them by their exclusion out of the city; and when they thought the zealots had been strong, but saw nothing of theirs to support them, they were in doubt about the matter, and many of them repented that they had come thither. 285 But the shame that would attend them in case they returned without doing any thing at all, so far overcame that their repentance, that they lay all night before the wall, though in a very bad encampment; 286 for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. 287 These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming.

Josephus, Wars 4.5.1 §313: 313 And now the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood; and that day, as it came on, they saw eight thousand five hundred dead bodies there.

These people are murdered in the wake of the earthquake, not (necessarily) slain by the earthquake itself, but the number of the dead is fairly close.

I doubt very much that verses 1-13 were penned by the same hand(s) that penned the rest of the book.

Just my humble opinion on a very difficult part of a very difficult book.

[klewis]

I doubt very much that verses 1-13 were penned by the same hand(s) that penned the rest of the book.

Just my humble opinion on a very difficult part of a very difficult book.

The processed that formed chapter 11, is entirely consistent with the process that formed any other part of the book of Revelation. The difference with Revelation 11 over other chapters is that it was affected be each of the drafts where as for example, Rev 13 was only affected by the last draft.

[Giuseppe]

Detering quotes Eisler who quotes a Talmudic passage where it is said that the "Num" was killed by the Egyptians because he wanted to make the Jews go out of Egypt (failing in the process).

Num = fish.

[Bernard Muller]

Emphasis are mine.

Revelation 11.8: 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

While Rome can certainly be described as a great city (and actually is elsewhere in Revelation), it would not be out of place to call Jerusalem by the same epithet:

What really matters is what "the great city" means in Revelation. I do not think the author would make one exception. And I doubt that author, writing after the destruction of Jerusalem, would call Jerusalem "the great city". Furthermore, at Rev 11:13, after the two witnesses had resurrected, a prophecy is made about "the tenth part of the city fell". But because no part of Jerusalem are known to have fallen during an earthquake before its destruction in 70 CE, that prophecy has to be made about an anticipated future event (the fall of part of the great city), when the whole of Jerusalem was already a pile of ruins. Consequently "the great city" of Rev 11:8 cannot be Jerusalem.

Just my humble opinion on a very difficult part of a very difficult book.

That's what you get into when the existence of a Jewish Revelation (later interpolated by Christians) is not considered.

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

Emphasis are mine.

Revelation 11.8: 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

While Rome can certainly be described as a great city (and actually is elsewhere in Revelation), it would not be out of place to call Jerusalem by the same epithet:

What really matters is what "the great city" means in Revelation. I do not think the author would make one exception.

I agree completely. No exception was made. I said I doubted this chapter was by the same hand as the others.

Just my humble opinion on a very difficult part of a very difficult book.

That's what you get into when the existence of a Jewish Revelation (later interpolated by Christians) is not considered.

I do consider that. I suspect that this section is a separate (and Jewish) text. My way of connecting the dots is different than yours, but the same process is in effect: we have a mixture of Jewish and Christian materials on our hands.

[Bernard Muller]

to Ben,

I agree completely. No exception was made. I said I doubted this chapter was by the same hand as the others.

Are you saying there were some strictly Jewish interpolations on a text initially written by a Jewish Christian?
However, earlier Jewish texts being Christianized were fairly common, as I found out in the Dichache, a big chunk of 1 Clement, the Ascension of Isaiah, some books of Enoch, etc.

I do consider that

Did you bother to read my piece on Revelation: http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
And consider some other "difficulties" as I specified here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4499&p=97796&hilit=cordially#p97796
All these "difficulties" disappear when it is accepted an initial strictly Jewish Revelation (very coherent) was messed up by later Christian additions.

And I have the backing of editions of the Jewish encyclopedia and of the Catholic encyclopedia. I just had to go into the details, verse by verse.

Cordially, Bernard