Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

Post by Peter Kirby »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:31 pm Given Talbert's overall argument in the chapter, I am not sure I follow your "son of man" argument
It’s not a slam dunk argument, but if Paul is quoting something that identifies Christ as the son of Man, it’s a little odd that Paul elsewhere does not make this identification. It’s a distinctive thing about Paul that it seems to be absent from his letters.
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

Post by Peter Kirby »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:31 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:11 pm
Philippians wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:01 pm in the likeness of humans having become,
and, having been found in shape as a human
The quote explains the first part above as describing Christ as the son of Adam/Man, which I found doubtful, as I said. I didn't see where the quote discussed the second part above.
Given Talbert's overall argument in the chapter, I am not sure I follow your "son of man" argument, but I agree it is a weakness of his case that Talbert does not more fully discuss the phrase καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος. His only comment there seems to be that this phrase is parallel to ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος.
Cheers. (To me the weakness goes beyond not discussing it, of course, as I think it raises problems for his interpretation.)
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

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Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:11 pmThe phrase "having been found in shape as a human" implies that there were other possibilities -- we would never say this of someone that was necessarily and always a human -- and that having been "found" this way is related to the choice(s) that Christ has made in this passage. Which would imply that one of those choices was whether he could be found in shape as a human. Which implies that, even as one of those choices was to be obedient unto death, another one of those choices was to be found in shape as a human.
This seems true of the English translation of a Greek passage which Talbert argues to be a translation of something in Hebrew, but I would want to know what he (or anyone else) thinks the Hebrew was which produced this awkward Greek phrase before passing judgment.
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:31 pm Given Talbert's overall argument in the chapter, I am not sure I follow your "son of man" argument
It’s not a slam dunk argument, but if Paul is quoting something that identifies Christ as the son of Man, it’s a little odd that Paul elsewhere does not make this identification. It’s a distinctive thing about Paul that it seems to be absent from his letters.
Do you mean "son of man" as a title? Or do you mean "son of man" as simply a Hebraic expression for a human being?
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:41 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:11 pmThe phrase "having been found in shape as a human" implies that there were other possibilities -- we would never say this of someone that was necessarily and always a human -- and that having been "found" this way is related to the choice(s) that Christ has made in this passage. Which would imply that one of those choices was whether he could be found in shape as a human. Which implies that, even as one of those choices was to be obedient unto death, another one of those choices was to be found in shape as a human.
This seems true of the English translation of a Greek passage which Talbert argues to be a translation of something in Hebrew, but I would want to know what he (or anyone else) thinks the Hebrew was which produced this awkward Greek phrase before passing judgment.
Ack. What makes the Greek phrase awkward?

Are we saying that Paul didn’t agree with what he’s writing, in Greek, and that he’s just kinda rote quoting some translated Hebrew? It’s possible I guess...
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

Post by Peter Kirby »

Is such a reading of the phrase possible?
This reading seems possible to me
My main difficulty in accepting Talbert's argument as truth or probability, not just possibility, is that there is actually no explicit argument. There is a build-up of possible readings and a litany of references to other literature, but there's no real attempt to argue that the passage means what he's saying that it's "possible" that it means. It's a seductive technique, to hold out a possibility and then defend it at length and in detail and with good writing, which draws us in by way of surprising us with overcoming some of our objections and pleasing us with a new perspective, but that doesn't make it true.
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

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This thread is about the Jesus hymn of Philippians 2.6-11. Ben's preferred structure for this passage has followed the English versification -

.
6 Who, though existing in the form of God, did not regard it as plunder to be equal to God,
7 but rather emptied himself, having taken the form of a slave, in the likeness of humans having become,
8 and, having been found in shape as a human, he humbled himself, becoming obedient until death [even death on a cross],
9 and on this account God also exalted him highly and gifted him the name which is over every name,
10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of the celestial and of the terrestrial and of the subchthonic,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord unto the glory of God the Father.


Philippians 2.6-11 (as divided by Talbert):

6 Who, though existing in the form of God,
did not regard it as plunder to be equal to God, 7 but rather emptied himself,
having taken the form of a slave,

in the likeness of humans having become,
8 and, having been found in shape as a human, he humbled himself,
becoming obedient until death [even death on a cross],

9 and on this account God also exalted him highly
and gifted him the name
which is over every name,

10 so that in the name of Jesus
every knee should bow, of the celestial and of the terrestrial and of the subchthonic,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord unto the glory of God the Father.

.


Like Ben, and prompted to look more closely by one of Peter Kirby's very recent posts above, I am interested in Talbert's exegesis of the hymn. I have highlighted some aspects of Talbert's exegesis -
Talbert wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:01 pm
Charles H. Talbert, 'The Problem Of Pre-Existence In Philippians 2:6-11' (1967), chapter 2 in The Development of Christology During the First Hundred Years, pages 54-58:

.
The first line of the second strophe reads: ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος. How should this language be understood? It has been noted that wherever Christ is designated ἄνθρωπος in Paul’s letters (Rom 5:12ff; 1 Cor 15:20–40; Phil 2:7b–8), a contrast with Adam is intended.23 It is certainly the case in Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15. Philippians 2:6–11, however, is a non-Pauline hymn. Should it be interpreted in the same way as Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15. Two observations about Rom 5:12–14 incline us to view ἄνθρωπος used of Jesus in Phil 2 as another indication of the Adam/Christ typology. First, in Romans Paul is writing to a church which is independent of his influence. Throughout Romans the apostle takes pains to speak in terms of tradition which they have in common (1:3–4; 4:25; 6:3–5; 8:28–30, for example). In [Romans] 5:12–14 there is no indication that the Adam/Christ parallel was new to the Romans. .... Indeed, in Hellenistic churches which used the LXX, such a reference to Jesus as second Adam would naturally have been made with the term ἄνθρωπος. Second, Rom 5:19 may possibly contain an echo of Isa 53:11 from the Hebrew text. This would point to the traditional character of the reference since Paul used the LXX. Since 5:19 is a unit, the reference to Isaiah which is tradition would have been made in the context of a contrast between the one man Adam and the one man Christ. In this case, the use of ἄνθρωπος in an Adam/Christ typology is clearly pre-Pauline. In the light of these two considerations, it seems entirely legitimate to see here in Phil 2:7b–8 the contrast between Adam and Christ indicated by the use of ἄνθρωπος for Christ.

Note, however, that the phrase does not say that Christ, like Adam, was in God’s image. Rather it says that Christ was ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων. This can be understood in terms of the Adam/Christ parallel, however, if we reflect upon Gen 5:1–3. In v. 1b the passage speaks of God’s creation of Adam in his own image. In the Hebrew Bible the context makes it clear that Adam (man) is plural (men or mankind). In the LXX the Hebrew is understood in this sense, as v. 2 shows: ἄρσεν καὶ πῆλυ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς, καὶ εὐλόγησεν αὐτούς. καὶ ἐπωνόμασεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῶν Ἀδάμ, ᾗ ἡμέρᾳ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς. Then the passage says that Adam had a son, Seth, who was “in his own likeness” (בדמותו), “after his image” (כצלמו). Thus, the passage tells of one who is a son of Adam (plural) and is in his likeness. Though the LXX of Gen 5:1b translates בדמות by κατ’ εἰκόνα and 5:3 translates בדמותו by κατὰ τὴν εἰδέαν αὐτοῦ, that ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων is a perfectly legitimate translation of בדמותו in Gen 5:3 may be seen from passages like 2 Kgs 16:10 where the LXX renders את־דמות by τὸ ὁμοίωμα and 2 Chr 4:3 where ודמות is rendered by καὶ ὁμοίωμα. It seems probably, therefore, that the phrase ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος is a part of the Adam/Christ typology and is intended to speak of Christ as son of Adam.

The first line of the first strophe reads: ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων. Since the phrase is formally parallel to ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος, the most natural reading of the phrase would be to take it also, if possible, as a part of the Adam/Christ typology. Is such a reading of the phrase possible? Three strands of evidence indicate that it is. (1) μορφῆ in the LXX is virtually a synonym for ὁμοίωμα since the LXX translators use them both to translate תבנית ,תאר and תמונה. Also, where the LXX has ὁμοίωμα in Deut 4:12, Symmachus has μορφήν. (2) καὶ ἡ μορφή is used in Dan 3:19 to translate the Aramaic וצלם while elsewhere ὁμοίωμα is used to translated the Hebrew צלם. (3) The Peshitta renders μορφή by “demoutha.” Moreover, the connection of μορφῇ θεοῦ with the expression οὐχ ἁπαργμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, which almost certainly echoes Gen 3:4, indicates that an Adam/Christ parallel is intended. It seems probable, therefore, that the phrase ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων is also part of the Adam/Christ typology and is intended to speak of Christ as the second Adam who has reversed the decision of the first Adam.

The first lines of strophes 1 and 2 are both to be interpreted in terms of an Adam/Christ contrast. The two lines say that Christ is both the second Adam and the son of Adam. The LXX of Gen 5:1–3 certainly seems to have understood the creation of Adam in God’s image as parallel to the birth of Seth in Adam’s image. Witness the structure:

ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν Ἀδάμ κατ’ εἰκόνα θεοῦ. . . .
ἐπωνόμασεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῶν Ἀδάμ. . . .
(Ἀδάμ) ἐγέννσεν κατὰ τὴν ἰδέαν αὐτοῦ καὶ κατὰ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ. . . . ἐπωνόμασεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Σήθ.

Moreover, early Christianity knew traditions which regarded Jesus as second Adam (Rom 5:12–21; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:1–13) and traditions which regarded Jesus as the son of Adam (Luke 3:23–38) ...
.


Ben commented thus -
Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:01 pm ... every one of the main Greek words and phrases in this hymn, especially the weirdest or most obscure ones, may hearken back either (A) to the Hebrew manner of expressing the relationship of Adam to God and of Seth (and his descendants) to Adam, or (B) to the Hebrew manner of describing the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53. Thus to be "in the form/likeness of God" is to be a son of God in the same manner as Adam is/was a son of God (that is, a second Adam); to be "in the likeness of humans" is to be, like Seth, in the likeness of Adam (that is, a son of Adam) ...

I wonder if aspects of this hymn - and perhaps other aspects of Paul's theology, as reflected in passages cited by Talbert - could in some way reflect Sethian Gnostic theology, and if Talbert's commentary could subconsciously reflect or even be a hat-tip to that?

eta: so, to riff off Ben's comments, there could be a 3rd option: the main Greek words and phrases in this hymn, especially the weirdest or most obscure ones, may hearken back to (c) a Sethian Gnostic tradition as part of a previously Hellenist Hebrew tradition

.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

Post by Peter Kirby »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:42 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:31 pm Given Talbert's overall argument in the chapter, I am not sure I follow your "son of man" argument
It’s not a slam dunk argument, but if Paul is quoting something that identifies Christ as the son of Man, it’s a little odd that Paul elsewhere does not make this identification. It’s a distinctive thing about Paul that it seems to be absent from his letters.
Do you mean "son of man" as a title? Or do you mean "son of man" as simply a Hebraic expression for a human being?
I wasn't making the distinction. The whole "son of man" question is an old quagmire, and I'm willing to let this go. I was just observing that (either type of) "son of man," as a phrase, doesn't seem to be present in Paul. This partly contributes to my doubt that Paul would consider Christ a "son of Adam," but as an argument from silence (and even for arguments from silence) it's not a strong one.
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

Post by Peter Kirby »

Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:11 pm
Philippians wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:01 pm in the likeness of humans having become,
and, having been found in shape as a human
The phrase "having been found in shape as a human" implies that there were other possibilities -- we would never say this of someone that was necessarily and alway a human -- and that having been "found" this way is related to the choice(s) that Christ has made in this passage. Which would imply that one of those choices was whether he could be found in shape as a human. Which implies that, even as one of those choices was to be obedient unto death, another one of those choices was to be found in shape as a human.
But all men born on earth and all sons of Adam are cursed to die, without God's intervention, so this Christ (who obediently accepted death by choice) wasn't born on earth and isn't a son of Adam.
These are two distinct arguments, based on the Greek passage (I glanced at the Greek briefly...).

I will take two distinct arguments based on the actual passage over no real arguments and downplaying interpretation of the Greek.
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Re: Incarnation (or the lack thereof) in the Philippian hymn (revisited).

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:04 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:11 pm
Philippians wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:01 pm in the likeness of humans having become,
and, having been found in shape as a human
The phrase "having been found in shape as a human" implies that there were other possibilities -- we would never say this of someone that was necessarily and alway a human -- and that having been "found" this way is related to the choice(s) that Christ has made in this passage. Which would imply that one of those choices was whether he could be found in shape as a human. Which implies that, even as one of those choices was to be obedient unto death, another one of those choices was to be found in shape as a human.
But all men born on earth and all sons of Adam are cursed to die, without God's intervention, so this Christ (who obediently accepted death by choice) wasn't born on earth and isn't a son of Adam.
These are two distinct arguments, based on the Greek passage (I glanced at the Greek briefly...).

I will take two distinct arguments based on the actual passage over no real arguments and downplaying interpretation of the Greek.
No, you make good points here (and elsewhere). My hesitation is that I once thought of "in the likeness of humans" to be a pointer to something nonhuman or docetic, too, and yet Talbert completely disarms that notion as a positive argument for my position, based on Genesis 5.1-3. "Having been found in the shape/appearance of a human" has not yet been disarmed for me, but so many scholars have suspected a Semitic background to this passage that, given Talbert's relative success with "in the likeness of humans" as a rendition of something Hebraic, I am interested to find out what "having been found in the shape/appearance of a human" might point back to in Hebrew (or in Aramaic).

And with a bit of searching I find two candidates, at least.

First, on page 252 of his doctoral thesis, A New Citizenship, Damian S. Szepessy notes that James Ware, on pages 225-226 of Paul and the Mission of the Church (a book to which I have no current access), derives both ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων and σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος from one of the descriptors of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah:

Isaiah 52.14: 14 Just as many were astonished at you, so His appearance was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men. / 14 ὃν τρόπον ἐκστήσονται ἐπὶ σὲ πολλοί, οὕτως ἀδοξήσει ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπων τὸ εἶδός σου καὶ ἡ δόξα σου ἀπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων. / 14 כַּאֲשֶׁ֙ר שָׁמְמ֤וּ עָלֶ֙יךָ֙ רַבִּ֔ים כֵּן־מִשְׁחַ֥ת מֵאִ֖ישׁ מַרְאֵ֑הוּ וְתֹאֲר֖וֹ מִבְּנֵ֥י אָדָֽם׃

Second, there is this:

Yongbom Lee, The Son of Man as the Last Adam, page 40: On the other hand, it contains some expressions that are awkward in Greek such as the phrase σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος and ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν. While the latter could have been simply a metaphorical expression, the former most likely reflects the literal translation of the Aramaic phrase כבר אנש. .... The author's Aramaism is most evident in the phrase σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος. Link: https://books.google.com/books?id=KRRNA ... 22&f=false.

כבר אנש = "like a son of man," from Daniel 7.13.

I am not sure yet whether either of these options fully explains what the concept of "finding" is doing here, among other things. Nor, however, am I awake enough by now to pursue it any further tonight. :)
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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