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Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:42 am
by Giuseppe
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:57 am
by Giuseppe
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:03 am
by Giuseppe
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:09 am
by Ben C. Smith
Thank you.
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:24 am
by rakovsky
Can someone summarize his argument? I did not really follow it. It sounded like he said that in Papias' writings and in the anti marcion prologues, it says that the gospel writer John opposed marcion. But this does not really make sense, because I thought that the gospel writer John died about the year 100, that marcion was born about 85 ad, that marcion and only started writing in the early 2nd Century like 120 to 130, that John and marcion probably didn't debate theologically, and that the only thing in question was whether papias wrote about the end of the first century or the early 2nd Century, and knew John or not. And since Papias' date of writing was unclear, he probably never mentioned Marcion in his writings, as such mention would mean that Papias wrote in the early 2nd century.
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:16 pm
by MrMacSon
rakovsky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:24 am
Can someone summarize his argument? I did not really follow it. It sounded like he said that in Papias' writings and in the anti-Marcion prologues, it says that the gospel writer John opposed Marcion ...
The Prologue for
John cited at the top of page 14 (R?) shows show antagonism from it's author to Marcion, and it asserts that there was a Marcionite
Antithesis against John. It seems that the the T version could have been influenced by the Prologue to the
Gospel of Luke.
Vinzent has laid out premises for an argument that John and Marcion knew each other, and Papias knew them too, though he says Papias was anti-Marcionite or had/has 'an anti-Marcionite profile': (i) by not mentioning or omitting Marcion’s authorities such as Paul, who is to Marcion the authority and the sole Apostle; his avoidance of using Marcion's newly created catchwords (Gospel, Old and New Testament); (ii) by using terms or references which Marcion rejected: the OT, referring to disciples of the Lord other than Paul, Matthew, Mark; and, (iii) his proximity to John.
Marcion seems to have brought writings or letters to John from brethren in Pontus, and to have also given ‘John’ some other writings and letters.
Marcion apparently made reference to/ critcises John's gospel in his
Antithesis/es.
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:53 pm
by rakovsky
OK, I got the impression from Vinzent that Papias had directly referred to Marcion, but maybe that was just Vinzent's own interpretation and might not be right.
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:00 pm
by MrMacSon
rakovsky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:53 pm
OK, I got the impression from Vinzent that Papias had directly referred to Marcion, but maybe that was just Vinzent's own interpretation and might not be right.
I think there's an indication somewhere that John disapproved of Marcion’s
Antitheses (Tertullian
De carne Christi III; BW Bacon, ‘The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to John’, 1930; 49), and a sentence of one of Papias’ Fragments [may] also align with such an interpretation (I'm going off notes for this).
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:10 am
by DCHindley
Hi fellow travelers,
My impression has been that church fathers thought that Papias had
anticipated Marcion in some way. That/those way(s) somehow negated one or more of the premises upon which Marcion built his theology. From the proto-orthodox POV, the Canonical gospels came first, then Papias, then Marcion.
My guess would be Papias' books contained one or more allusions to something that the proto-orthodox believed Marcion had "cut out" of Luke. I would also include among those allusions parallel accounts in the other synoptic gospels, as the church fathers grasped at a lot of straws when defending the faith.
DCH
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:00 pm
rakovsky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:53 pm
OK, I got the impression from Vinzent that Papias had directly referred to Marcion, but maybe that was just Vinzent's own interpretation and might not be right.
I think there's an indication somewhere that John disapproved of Marcion’s
Antitheses (Tertullian
De carne Christi III; BW Bacon, ‘The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to John’, 1930; 49), and a sentence of one of Papias’ Fragments [may] also align with such an interpretation (I'm going off notes for this).
Re: Vinzent on Papias
Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:42 pm
by MrMacSon
DCHindley wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:10 am
Hi fellow travelers,
My impression has been that church fathers thought that Papias had '
anticipated' Marcion in some way. That/those way(s) somehow negated one or more of the premises upon which Marcion built his theology. From the proto-orthodox POV, the Canonical gospels came first, then Papias, then Marcion.
My guess would be Papias' books contained one or more allusions to something that the proto-orthodox believed Marcion had "cut out" of Luke. I would also include among those allusions parallel accounts in the other synoptic gospels, as the church fathers grasped at a lot of straws when defending the faith.
I'm not sure whether Papias would have referred to Marcion or Luke, based on what Vinzent has said about Papias seeming to have avoided those texts.
Certainly Vinzent discusses dubious accounts in the texts of Eusebius: pp. 22-25 in the images Giuseppe supplied above, eventually noting -
Scott Manor, therefore, seems to be right when he states Eusebius 'has combined this record with his own statements, and [is] manipulating the tradition to make it say more than what was originally recorded'.
112
Vinzent, M (2014)
Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels,
mid. p. 25.
112 T. Scott Manor, 'Papias' (2013)*, 12.
*
presumably TS Manor 'Papias, Origen, & Eusebius: The Criticisms & Defense of the Gospel of John'
Vigiliae Christianae 67(1), 1-21
eta: T Scott Manor has presented “Tampering with Tradition: How Eusebius Manipulated the Tradition of Papias.” Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting, 2011
