Mythicist evidence: Why is Justin accused "to hold the same opinions as others"?

[Giuseppe]

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timæus of Plato, where he says, He placed him crosswise in the universe, he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, If you look to this figure, and believe, you shall be saved thereby. Numbers 21:8 And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death. Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe. And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, that the Spirit of God moved over the waters. For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, And the third around the third. And hear how the Spirit of prophecy signified through Moses that there should be a conflagration. He spoke thus: Everlasting fire shall descend, and shall devour to the pit beneath. Deuteronomy 32:22 It is not, then, that we hold the same opinions as others, but that all speak in imitation of ours. Among us these things can be heard and learned from persons who do not even know the forms of the letters, who are uneducated and barbarous in speech, though wise and believing in mind; some, indeed, even maimed and deprived of eyesight; so that you may understand that these things are not the effect of human wisdom, but are uttered by the power of God.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Who is for Plato "he" who placed him crosswise in the universe"? Surely the Platonic demiurge (not an evil being).

This Platonic demiurge is for Justin allegorized by the Moses (and by the God of Moses) while the crucified Son would be allegorized by the impaled Serpent.

So Justin is replying against the accusation raised by the his enemies. The Christians like Justin are accused of believing in a celestial crucifixion of Jesus just as other Christians. Justin denies this, by answering that "all speak in imitation of ours": it is not him who is euhemerizing the celestial crucifixion by introducing a Gospel Jesus, but it is them (probably a group of rival Christians) who, like the "Christian" Plato did in the past, are speaking now about a celestial crucifixion in mere imitation (co-optation) of the historical crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth.

I think and believe that this passage of Justin is evidence of the contrast between "mythicist" Christians (believing, like the "Christian" Plato, that the Son of God was crucified in heaven) and historicist Christians.

[Giuseppe]

The right questions to raise:

Why is Justin accused "to hold the same opinions as others"?

Why is Justin defending himself by accusing enigmatic ''others'' - Plato in primis (i.e., someone who believed in a celestial crucifixion of a filling-universe deity) - of derivation from the his same opinions ?


The best answer:

Because the accusation addressed against Justin was more precisely the following, (more or less):

you Justin are a total liar since you preach publicly a historical Jesus of Nazareth but you, in secret, believe that the true Jesus was ''placed crosswise in the universe'' (since the victim wa a filling-universe giant). Jut as those other Christians believe (but publicly, differently from you).

[Giuseppe]

The right questions to raise:

Why is Justin accused "to hold the same opinions as others"?

Why is Justin defending himself by accusing enigmatic ''others'' - Plato in primis (i.e., someone who believed in a celestial crucifixion of a filling-universe deity) - of derivation from the his same opinions ?


The best answer:

Because the accusation addressed against Justin was more precisely the following, (more or less):

you Justin are a total liar since you preach publicly a historical Jesus of Nazareth but you, in secret, believe that the true Jesus was ''placed crosswise in the universe'' (since the victim wa a filling-universe giant). Jut as those other Christians believe (but publicly, differently from you).

I find traces of that accusation addressed against Justin in the following passage of Acts of John:

99 This cross, then, is that which fixed all things apart (al. joined all things unto itself) by the (or a) word, and separate off the things that are from those that are below (lit. the things from birth and below it), and then also, being one, streamed forth into all things (or, made all flow forth. I suggested: compacted all into [one]). But this is not the cross of wood which thou wilt see when thou goest down hence: neither am I he that is on the cross, whom now thou seest not, but only hearest his (or a) voice. I was reckoned to be that which I am not, not being what I was unto many others: but they will call me (say of me) something else which is vile and not worthy of me.

http://gnosis.org/library/actjohn.htm

The crucifixion "who fixed all things apart" can only be the astral crucifixion of a filing-universe giant, the only being able to give life to the universe by the his death (see also the parable of Sower).

Justin's words reveal who is the killer of this cosmic Christ:

He placed him crosswise in the universe,

The platonic demiurge, now considered as an evil creator, the god of the Jews.

[GakuseiDon]

Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe

You can be sure that when Justin Martyr states an author as "not accurately understanding" something, he is about tell you what the author REALLY should have thought. Thanks Justin Martyr!

Plato's Timaeus can be found here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1572/1572-h/1572-h.htm

The text is mind-numbingly obtuse, and I can't read more than a couple of paragraphs without needing to take a break and/or aspirin. The statement about the cross is IIUC where the world soul joins with the world. This is part of it:

And thus the whole mixture out of which he [the Creator God] cut these portions was all exhausted by him. This entire compound he divided lengthways into two parts, which he joined to one another at the centre like the letter X, and bent them into a circular form, connecting them with themselves and each other at the point opposite to their original meeting-point; and, comprehending them in a uniform revolution upon the same axis, he made the one the outer and the other the inner circle. Now the motion of the outer circle he called the motion of the same, and the motion of the inner circle the motion of the other or diverse. The motion of the same he carried round by the side (i.e. of the rectangular figure supposed to be inscribed in the circle of the Same) to the right, and the motion of the diverse diagonally (i.e. across the rectangular figure from corner to corner) to the left. And he gave dominion to the motion of the same and like, for that he left single and undivided; but the inner motion he divided in six places and made seven unequal circles having their intervals in ratios of two and three, three of each, and bade the orbits proceed in a direction opposite to one another; and three (Sun, Mercury, Venus) he made to move with equal swiftness, and the remaining four (Moon, Saturn, Mars, Jupiter) to move with unequal swiftness to the three and to one another, but in due proportion.

Now when the Creator had framed the soul according to his will, he formed within her the corporeal universe, and brought the two together, and united them centre to centre. The soul, interfused everywhere from the centre to the circumference of heaven, of which also she is the external envelopment, herself turning in herself, began a divine beginning of never-ceasing and rational life enduring throughout all time.

[GakuseiDon]

I find traces of that accusation addressed against Justin in the following passage of Acts of John:

99 This cross, then, is that which fixed all things apart (al. joined all things unto itself) by the (or a) word, and separate off the things that are from those that are below (lit. the things from birth and below it), and then also, being one, streamed forth into all things (or, made all flow forth. I suggested: compacted all into [one]). But this is not the cross of wood which thou wilt see when thou goest down hence: neither am I he that is on the cross, whom now thou seest not, but only hearest his (or a) voice. I was reckoned to be that which I am not, not being what I was unto many others: but they will call me (say of me) something else which is vile and not worthy of me.

http://gnosis.org/library/actjohn.htm

That's interesting, Giuseppe. I wonder if the shape of an X was common in items that had two things fixed together (maybe seen in buildings, on chariot wheels, etc?), so had that philosophical significance to people. I haven't come across it elsewhere in early literature (in English translation only, of course, since I can't read the original languages).

Has anyone else come across the idea of an X fixing things together? It would make a nice alternative to early Christians to use as a comparison than actual crosses used for crucifixion (which Tertullian and M. Felix tried to do with the Roman Standard looking like a man on a cross).