No mention of Pilate in Festus's discourse of Acts 25 (and why this silence is surprising)

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Giuseppe
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No mention of Pilate in Festus's discourse of Acts 25 (and why this silence is surprising)

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:56 am

A very strange silence, indeed.

Instead, it was something about their religion and a dead man named Jesus, who Paul insists is alive.

25:19

Pilato is mentioned 3 times in Acts. Only a time he is mentioned by Paul, in Acts 13:28.

It is surprising that Pilate is mentioned by a catholicized Paul but not by the Roman Festus.

The silence about Pilate is also found in Pliny the Younger.

Any Roman authority should know what a Roman authority did in the recent past and in the same place, at least.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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DCHindley
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Re: No mention of Pilate in Festus's discourse of Acts 25 (and why this silence is surprising)

Post by DCHindley » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:56 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:56 am
Any Roman authority should know what a Roman authority did in the recent past and in the same place, at least.
Why should we assume that?? :scratch: In 68 CE there were 36 provinces (11 senatorial and 25 imperial). He kept up with all of them? Even the periodic newspaper that circulated in the Roman capital, when he was there and not at one of his many villas in the countryside, would at best just mention notable events in the provinces in passing, as its focus was on gossip about socialites and politicians in the city of Rome, and short summaries of proceedings of the Senate.

And how is Tacitus in "the same place" as Pilate? You mean here on earth? :cheeky:

Pilate was killing would-be messianists and robber band leaders for his entire career. Judaea was full of these types, meaning nobody outside of the province wanted to hear the details of one particular trial and execution.

But I also find the statement placed in Festus' mouth to be strange. The synoptic Gospels portray Jesus as a sagely fellow who was unjustly killed as a rebel by the Romans, but what Romans seemed to fix onto was the fact that he was crucified as a rebel. So for Festus to call Jesus a mere dead man and not mention a crucifixion is a bit strange. But there are two problems with this matter: 1) How can we be sure that the author of Acts 25 didn't simply want avoid this and leave that fact out of the narrative, and 2) Even if he was sharing actual court testimony, how do we know that Paul even mentioned the manner of Jesus' death to Festus?

DCH

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Re: No mention of Pilate in Festus's discourse of Acts 25 (and why this silence is surprising)

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:55 am

DCHindley wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:56 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:56 am
Any Roman authority should know what a Roman authority did in the recent past and in the same place, at least.
Why should we assume that?? :scratch: In 68 CE there were 36 provinces (11 senatorial and 25 imperial). He kept up with all of them? Even the periodic newspaper that circulated in the Roman capital, when he was there and not at one of his many villas in the countryside, would at best just mention notable events in the provinces in passing, as its focus was on gossip about socialites and politicians in the city of Rome, and short summaries of proceedings of the Senate.
According to Acts, the Roman Festus was active in Jerusalem when he did that claim. Therefore at least he had to know that the Jesus he was talking about was killed by a Roman chief named Pilate.
And how is Tacitus in "the same place" as Pilate? You mean here on earth? :cheeky:
I has written in allusion to Festus (as residing in Jerusalem):

Any Roman authority (Festus) should know what a Roman authority did in the recent past and in the same place, at least.

In other terms, being in Jerusalem, Festus was even closer than Paul to the presumed "real" events happened in Jerusalem about Jesus under Pilate. The his Silence about Pilate (as the killer of Jesus) is therefore more surprising (=more STRONG) than the same silence of Pliny about Pilate (as killer of Jesus).


Pilate was killing would-be messianists and robber band leaders for his entire career. Judaea was full of these types, meaning nobody outside of the province wanted to hear the details of one particular trial and execution.
it is STRONGLY expected that at least another Roman active in Jerusalem (and came in contact with Christians just there, in Jerusalem) knew about Pilate as killer of Jesus. Well: this is not the case with Festus. And this is strange.
Even if he was sharing actual court testimony, how do we know that Paul even mentioned the manner of Jesus' death to Festus?
We know that with absolute certainty in virtue of the direct witness of Paul the Apostle in 1 Corinthians: he preached only Jesus, and "him crucified".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: No mention of Pilate in Festus's discourse of Acts 25 (and why this silence is surprising)

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:04 am

DCHindley wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:56 am
But I also find the statement placed in Festus' mouth to be strange. The synoptic Gospels portray Jesus as a sagely fellow who was unjustly killed as a rebel by the Romans, but what Romans seemed to fix onto was the fact that he was crucified as a rebel. So for Festus to call Jesus a mere dead man and not mention a crucifixion is a bit strange. But there are two problems with this matter: 1) How can we be sure that the author of Acts 25 didn't simply want avoid this and leave that fact out of the narrative, and 2) Even if he was sharing actual court testimony, how do we know that Paul even mentioned the manner of Jesus' death to Festus?
It is not so strange, afterall:
1) if Paul didn't meet really Festus, i.e. Festus met other Christians and not really Paul himself, so Paul couldn't proclaim Christ crucified to Festus.
2) if the cruxifixion was not the manner of death of the Jesus in the earliest Myth. We know from a particular version of the Ascension of Isaiah that Jesus was killed by demons and only after the his mere corpse was hung on the tree. And obviously, the Christ-Lamb of Revelation was not crucified.

So, in both the cases (a real meeting of Festus with Paul or with Christians different from Paul), the Argument from Silence is STRONG.


It is even more strong since the Silence is not only from Festus, but also from the Jewish accusers of Paul before Festus. So the historicist can't evade the discussion by adducing (as usual) the excuse that “Paul eclipsed deliberately a seditious Jesus”.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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DCHindley
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Re: No mention of Pilate in Festus's discourse of Acts 25 (and why this silence is surprising)

Post by DCHindley » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:26 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:04 am
DCHindley wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:56 am
But I also find the statement placed in Festus' mouth to be strange. The synoptic Gospels portray Jesus as a sagely fellow who was unjustly killed as a rebel by the Romans, but what Romans seemed to fix onto was the fact that he was crucified as a rebel. So for Festus to call Jesus a mere dead man and not mention a crucifixion is a bit strange. But there are two problems with this matter: 1) How can we be sure that the author of Acts 25 didn't simply want avoid this and leave that fact out of the narrative, and 2) Even if he was sharing actual court testimony, how do we know that Paul even mentioned the manner of Jesus' death to Festus?
It is not so strange, afterall:
1) if Paul didn't meet really Festus, i.e. Festus met other Christians and not really Paul himself, so Paul couldn't proclaim Christ crucified to Festus.
2) if the cruxifixion was not the manner of death of the Jesus in the earliest Myth. We know from a particular version of the Ascension of Isaiah that Jesus was killed by demons and only after the his mere corpse was hung on the tree. And obviously, the Christ-Lamb of Revelation was not crucified.

So, in both the cases (a real meeting of Festus with Paul or with Christians different from Paul), the Argument from Silence is STRONG.

It is even more strong since the Silence is not only from Festus, but also from the Jewish accusers of Paul before Festus. So the historicist can't evade the discussion by adducing (as usual) the excuse that “Paul eclipsed deliberately a seditious Jesus”.
What would Simon & Garfunkel think of your interpretation of the Sound of Silence?

For a really Disturbed interpretation, see below:



DCH

Giuseppe
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Re: No mention of Pilate in Festus's discourse of Acts 25 (and why this silence is surprising)

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:47 am

:lol:

I profit to give:

Happy New Year to all the members of the forum!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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