Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by MrMacSon »

steve43 wrote:How can you verify Josephus?

Josephus IS our only source for much of Jewish history.

And, regarding Jesus as being real. Josephus is verified by the New Testament regarding Jesus, or the other way around.


... if you split up the New Testament into separate books, all five Gospels and most of the letters verify Jesus existed, and so verify Josephus on that point.
Josephus was reportedly beholden to Vespasian who became his patron after the First Jewish–Roman War when Josephus, as head of Jewish forces in Galilee, surrendering in 67 to Roman forces led by Vespasian.
Vespasian decided to keep Josephus as a hostage and interpreter. After Vespasian did become Emperor in 69, he granted Josephus his freedom, at which time Josephus assumed the emperor's family name of Flavius.

Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the Siege of Jerusalem, which resulted—when the Jewish revolt did not surrender—in the city's destruction and the looting and destruction of Herod's Temple (Second Temple).

Josephus recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the first century AD and the First Jewish–Roman War, including the Siege of Masada, but the imperial patronage of his work has sometimes caused it to be characterized as pro-Roman propaganda.
There is no concurrent contemporary indication Josephus was an accurate 'historian'.

It is a long stretch to say Josephus is verified by the NT regarding Jesus: Josephus mentions 19/20 Jesuses in his writings: Antiquities 18 is considered a later Christian interpolation. Antiquities 20 reference to James "brother of Jesus" is as likely or more likely to refer to the Jesus ben Damneus mentioned later in the same passage.
Stone
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by Stone »

[quote="steve43"]How can you verify Josephus?

Josephus IS our only source for much of Jewish history.

And, regarding Jesus as being real. Josephus is verified by the New Testament regarding Jesus, or the other way around.

But I would assume you don't accept that verification.

And if you split up the New Testament into separate books, all five Gospels and most of the letters verify Jesus existed, and so verify Josephus on that point.

I bet you have an answer to that.

Waiting.[/quote]

Thanks for being the voice of sanity! As R. Joseph Hoffmann has said of these mythers/mythtics --

http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/20 ... -scholars/

-- "The disease these buggers spread is ignorance disguised as common sense. They are the single greatest threat, next to fundamentalism, to the calm and considered academic study of religion, touting the scientific method as their Mod Op while ignoring its application to historical study."

Posters like steve43 are needed -- and very welcome here.

Stone
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by MrMacSon »

Stone wrote:Thanks for being the voice of sanity! As R. Joseph Hoffmann has said of these mythers/mythtics --

http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/20 ... -scholars/
-- "The disease these buggers spread is ignorance disguised as common sense. They are the single greatest threat, next to fundamentalism, to the calm and considered academic study of religion, touting the scientific method as their Mod Op while ignoring its application to historical study."
Posters like steve43 are needed -- and very welcome here.

Stone
the last 1/3 of that quote from Hoffmann is a non-sequitur and espouses a category error: the scientific method might have application to things like a post-burial resurrection, or radioisotope dating; but hardly has application to the historical method.
steve43
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by steve43 »

I have recommended Hagan's work, which Helen bought and derided for its "simplistic" reliance on the inherent truth of the works of Josephus.

But therein she labels herself as someone who has an agenda- one that obviously is not supported by Josephus.

For the serious historian, or someone who wants to know the real political and religious situations from which the Christian religion arose, your sources have to be very carefully defined.

Josephus is one of the absolute best, and should be accepted as the gold standard. What he writes should be taken as the truth, unless proven otherwise. PROVEN otherwise. Nothing found in the mishmash of writings in the Talmud, for instance, should ever be used to trump Josephus.

As far as history goes, the Talmud is not even in the same league.

We know more about Josephus than another other ancient historian. His checkered history doesn't suggest he falsified any of his writings- he was a trained priest in the Second Temple, after all, and knew Ananus and his sons, and certainly, as a young man, knew Caiaphas and probably saw Agrippa I.

As Hagan himself wrote, on one level it is easier to recreate the ancient world because the good sources are limited. Other first-rate sources are Tacitus, Philo, Suetonius. And, of course, the New Testament.

I wish Helen would put her biases aside and start to read. Hagan's work is mostly Roman and Jewish history. Into that is woven Christian events. Several characters are common to the New Testament and the secular works, and so a time line can be created. And interesting things found as a result. Such as: Working against the popular acceptance of the writings of Josephus, apart from his supporting that Jesus was a living human being, was that the Romans were protective of the early sect as much as they could be, while the Jews and their aristocracy were working against the Christians in deadly earnest- even likely playing a role in Nero's outwardly-puzzling persecution of them in Rome in A.D. 64.

To speculate, there are modern political realities that make true Josephus scholarship a taboo area in most academic institutions.

All Christian religious historians should start from the secular and work their way down to the religious. And they should know Josephus cold.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by MrMacSon »

steve43 wrote: ... to know the real political and religious situations from which the Christian religion arose ...
Yes; it had theological & political beginnings.
steve43 wrote:Josephus is one of the absolute best, and should be accepted as the gold standard. What he writes should be taken as the truth, unless proven otherwise. PROVEN otherwise. Nothing found in the mishmash of writings in the Talmud, for instance, should ever be used to trump Josephus.
err; Josephus never says anything about the Christian religion. Nor does the Talmud.
steve43 wrote:As Hagan himself wrote, on one level it is easier to recreate the ancient world because the good sources are limited. Other first-rate sources are Tacitus, Philo, Suetonius. And, of course, the New Testament.
"first rate sources" - sounds like confirmation bias more than an objective statement.
steve43 wrote:Several characters are common to the New Testament and the secular works, and so a time line can be created.
Which ones? in what way?

It is widely agreed the references to Jesus in Antiquities 18 are later Christian interpolations!!
ficino
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by ficino »

maryhelena wrote:
I have not been able to get a copy of the article by Yoel Elitzur. However, I did find, on the Bible and Interpretation, site a new article on the Abba Cave by Joe Zias

A Jerusalem tomb, ‘blind leading the blind’ or just another Day in Paradise?

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/201 ... 8008.shtml

A commentator, Greg Doudna, asked a question at the end of his first post. Which, so far, has not been answered. Doudna has now put up a longer comment, in three parts, detailing his own opinion on the Abba Cave - thus raising questions regarding the article by Joe Zias.
Wow, just read Zias' article. I'm ready to fly to Israel and pay money to see the tomb of the last Maccabean ruler under some dude's apartment!!

Reminds me of stuff I've read about "sites" in Nazareth.

Eager to see whether the latest issue of IEJ will be in the periodicals room this PM.
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maryhelena
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by maryhelena »

ficino wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
I have not been able to get a copy of the article by Yoel Elitzur. However, I did find, on the Bible and Interpretation, site a new article on the Abba Cave by Joe Zias

A Jerusalem tomb, ‘blind leading the blind’ or just another Day in Paradise?

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/201 ... 8008.shtml

A commentator, Greg Doudna, asked a question at the end of his first post. Which, so far, has not been answered. Doudna has now put up a longer comment, in three parts, detailing his own opinion on the Abba Cave - thus raising questions regarding the article by Joe Zias.
Wow, just read Zias' article. I'm ready to fly to Israel and pay money to see the tomb of the last Maccabean ruler under some dude's apartment!!

Reminds me of stuff I've read about "sites" in Nazareth.

Eager to see whether the latest issue of IEJ will be in the periodicals room this PM.
I just checked the site.......no response to Greg Doudna' response to this article......
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steve43
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by steve43 »

"first rate sources" - sounds like confirmation bias more than an objective statement.

steve43 wrote:Several characters are common to the New Testament and the secular works, and so a time line can be created.


Which ones? in what way?

It is widely agreed the references to Jesus in Antiquities 18 are later Christian interpolations!!


Are kidding? Confirmation bias using Tacitus and Suetonius? LOL.

And as for common figure- how about Herodias, Antiaps, Agrippa I, and Tiberius for starters?

"Widely agreed" that Antiquities Book 18 is a later Christian interpolation?

Have you even read the book? The TF is one thing, but that is a small part of the book.

It is becoming harder and harder to take you seriously.
ficino
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by ficino »

maryhelena wrote:
ficino wrote:
maryhelena wrote:
I have not been able to get a copy of the article by Yoel Elitzur. However, I did find, on the Bible and Interpretation, site a new article on the Abba Cave by Joe Zias

A Jerusalem tomb, ‘blind leading the blind’ or just another Day in Paradise?

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/201 ... 8008.shtml

A commentator, Greg Doudna, asked a question at the end of his first post. Which, so far, has not been answered. Doudna has now put up a longer comment, in three parts, detailing his own opinion on the Abba Cave - thus raising questions regarding the article by Joe Zias.
Wow, just read Zias' article. I'm ready to fly to Israel and pay money to see the tomb of the last Maccabean ruler under some dude's apartment!!

Reminds me of stuff I've read about "sites" in Nazareth.

Eager to see whether the latest issue of IEJ will be in the periodicals room this PM.
I just checked the site.......no response to Greg Doudna' response to this article......
The issue in question (IEJ 63.1, p. 87ff) is not on the shelf in Periodicals. Whenever I get to the other library I usually use, I'll see if it's there. sorry, F
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Ehrman's "How Jesus Became a God" is now out.

Post by Peter Kirby »

steve43 wrote:
MrMacSon wrote: It is widely agreed the references to Jesus in Antiquities 18 are later Christian interpolations!!
"Widely agreed" that Antiquities Book 18 is a later Christian interpolation?

Have you even read the book? The TF is one thing, but that is a small part of the book.
Try reading more closely... or more sympathetically. Either way you would see where you went wrong in this reply.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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