The Pastorals

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by Charles Wilson »

John2 wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:11 am And listen to what James says in 3:1 in the midst of reproving the "foolish man" who taught "faith without works":
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
And teaching Torah observance and righteousness is exactly what Jesus says to do in Matthew.
Correct. And...?

5:6:
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness ...


And...

5:10:
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness ...
And...

5:19-20:
So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Which brings up Matthew 23: 13 (RSV, with emphases added):

[13] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

This is a different Story, a Story of the Priesthood and The Kingdom of Heaven which is a real, physical place. The Scribes and Pharisees are not worthy or righteous enough to enter the "Realm of Heaven" (Moffatt). They prevent MEN from entering, not spirit entities. They themselves, as humans, not spirits, do not enter.

This is, therefore, Transvaluation of a Priestly Story, bent to the New Religion.
John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

Since Acts (in my view) knew (of) Josephus, it seems curious that it stops before the outbreak of the 66-70 CE War, and also that Paul's death is so hazy in Christian tradition (which I would guess is because of Acts and maybe even Josephus, who doesn't say how Saul died -and perhaps that's why Acts doesn't know). Wikipedia puts it this way:
The date of Paul's death is believed to have occurred after the Great Fire of Rome in July 64, but before the last year of Nero's reign, in 68.

A legend later developed that his martyrdom occurred at the Aquae Salviae, on the Via Laurentina. According to this legend, after Paul was decapitated, his severed head rebounded three times, giving rise to a source of water each time that it touched the ground, which is how the place earned the name "San Paolo alle Tre Fontane" ("St Paul at the Three Fountains"). Also according to legend, Paul's body was buried outside the walls of Rome, at the second mile on the Via Ostiensis, on the estate owned by a Christian woman named Lucina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle#Death
As it is, Acts stops at the exact time period that Josephus says Saul and "a multitude of wicked wretches" ran rampant in Jerusalem after the death of James. But if Paul is Josephus' Saul, this would pick up where Acts leaves off. And not only does Josephus' Saul sound like Paul to me with respect to being a violent Herodian (e.g, Rom. 16:11: "Greet my kinsman Herodion"), he is also mentioned along with people with the same name as early Christians (in Acts!), like Philip (Acts 8:3-5: "But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Christ to them") and NIger (Acts 13:1: "Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen, who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul," cf. Niger of Perea, who is mentioned after the Saul passage below in War 2.20.4), and also with Nero (and Paul mentions someone named Epaphroditus, the same name as Nero's secretary and Josephus' patron who was later executed by Domitian during the time he was persecuting Christians). And, also like Paul, Josephus' Saul had to flee Jerusalem and spent time in Greece (consorting with Nero!).

And I already think 1 Thessalonians is late and that 2:14-16 is not an interpolation, regardless of whether or not Paul is Josephus' Saul, so I factor that in as well.

War 2.20.1:
After this calamity had befallen Cestius [in 66 CE], many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink; Costobarus, therefore, and Saul, who were brethren, together with Philip, the son of Jacimus, who was the commander of king Agrippa's forces, ran away from the city, and went to Cestius. But then how Antipas, who had been besieged with them in the king's palace, but would not fly away with them, was afterward slain by the seditious, we shall relate hereafter. However, Cestius sent Saul and his friends, at their own desire, to Achaia, to Nero, to inform him of the great distress they were in, and to lay the blame of their kindling the war upon Florus, as hoping to alleviate his own danger, by provoking his indignation against Florus.


1 Thess. 2:14-16 (which I reckon could be as late as c. 67 CE, when Paul -if he is Josephus' Saul- could have known about Vespasian's campaign -perhaps even via Nero!- and which could explain his remark about the "utmost wrath," and cf. Rom. 13 below):
You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well ... As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.

Php. 4:22:
All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household.
Php. 2:25-30:
But I thought it necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my needs. For he has been longing for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. He was sick indeed, nearly unto death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow.

Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may rejoice, and I may be less anxious. Welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor men like him, because he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to make up for your deficit of service to me.
Php. 4:18:
I have all I need and more, now that I have received your gifts from Epaphroditus.
Ant. Preface 2:
... and, above all the rest, Epaphroditus, a man who is a lover of all kind of learning, but is principally delighted with the knowledge of history, and this on account of his having been himself concerned in great affairs, and many turns of fortune, and having shown a wonderful rigor of an excellent nature, and an immovable virtuous resolution in them all.
If Paul is Josephus' Saul (and if Acts knew of Josephus), it seems fairly obvious why Acts doesn't say what happened to Paul after c. 63 CE, i.e., because Josephus says he and "a multitude of wicked wretches" had used violence against "those that were weaker than themselves" and that he had consorted with Nero (who was in ill repute by the time I think Acts was written).

And Paul and Josephus' Saul were opposed to rebellion against Rome.

War 2.17.4:
So the men of power perceiving that the sedition was too hard for them to subdue, and that the danger which would arise from the Romans would come upon them first of all, endeavored to save themselves, and sent ambassadors, some to Florus, the chief of which was Simon the son of Ananias; and others to Agrippa, among whom the most eminent were Saul, and Antipas, and Costobarus, who were of the king's kindred; and they desired of them both that they would come with an army to the city, and cut off the seditious before it should be too hard to be subdued.
Rom. 13:1-7:
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
The experienced and unassuming general Vespasian was given the task, by Nero, of crushing the rebellion in Judaea province. Vespasian's son Titus was appointed as second-in-command. Given four legions and assisted by forces of King Agrippa II, Vespasian invaded Galilee in 67.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jew ... 3Roman_War
Last edited by John2 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:58 pm, edited 24 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

And now that I think about it, since I view 1 Thess. 2:14-16 as not being an interpolation, it could exonerate Paul of having anything directly to do with killing Jesus (if not of knowing about and disliking him while he was alive like other Pharisees and Herodians).
... the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

I'm starting to think Paul's (and in my view Josephus') patron Epaphroditus could have written Acts (if not also the gospel of Luke). From my point of view, Luke/Acts is pro-Paul, pro-Rome, used Josephus, and had access to earlier Christian writings (such as Mark and in my view also Matthew, as per the Farrer Hypothesis). And Epaphroditus was pro-Paul (since he supported him), pro-Rome (since he was an imperial freedman), and if he was later Josephus' patron of the same name, then he would have had access to Josephus. And he was a writer (since he was a secretary) and was particularly interested in history (according to Josephus). And he was a Christian and a companion of Paul, so he could have had access to earlier Christian writings (and maybe even the "We" writings are his). His statue even shows him holding scrolls.

https://www.livius.org/pictures/a/roman ... phroditus/

As a lover of history, maybe he tried to emulate Josephus and write one himself for Christians (from a pro-Paul, pro-Roman perspective).

And if he died c. 95 CE as Suetonius says (during the time Domitian was persecuting Christians), he would have had access to Josephus' Antiquities (which was published c. 93 CE and which in my view Acts uses). And this would then give us a date for Luke/Acts, i.e., somewhere between c. 93 CE and c. 95 CE, which would mean that Mark (and Matthew) would definitely be pre- c. 93 CE (which seems clear to me from Papias in any event).
Last edited by John2 on Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:13 pm, edited 8 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

Another thing worth mentioning is that in addition to the other parallels between the Dead Sea Scrolls that mention the Teacher of Righteousness and Christianity (like the New Covenant in a place called Damascus), the former also use the word "ebionites," such as in the Psalms Pesher.
Interpreted, this concerns the congregation of the Poor ...
And while it is capitalized in this translation by Vermes, in my view (since this is pre-70 CE, and given what Epiphanius, who knew Jewish Christians and Ebionite writings in his time, says about the Ebionite faction of Jewish Christianity emerging sometime after 70 CE, as opposed to the Nazarenes, who he says emerged pre-70 CE), I'm inclined to view writers of the DSS that mention the Teacher of Righteousness as being little "e" ebionites (before the term became a title after 70 CE), since they call themselves other things too (such as the "elect of God," the "simple of Judah doing Torah" and "doers of the Torah," cf. James 4:11, which uses the same expression "doer of the Law"). In other words, I'm thinking that the writers of the DSS that mention the Teacher are proto-Ebionites, the kind of people who hated Paul and became big "E" Ebionites and continued to hate Paul after 70 CE. And in my view, they would be the kind of pre-70 CE Jewish Christians who attacked Paul and rioted in Jerusalem in Acts 21:20-36 and 23:12-15:
Then they said to Paul, “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. What then should we do? They will certainly hear that you have come.

Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law ...

So the next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he entered the temple to give notice of the date their purification would be complete and the offering would be made for each of them.

When the seven days were almost over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, crying out, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against our people and against our law and against this place. Furthermore, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place” ...

The whole city was stirred up, and the people rushed together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut. While they were trying to kill him, the commander of the Roman regiment received a report that all Jerusalem was in turmoil. Immediately he took some soldiers and centurions and ran down to the crowd. When the people saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul ...

Some in the crowd were shouting one thing, and some another. And since the commander could not confirm the facts because of the uproar, he ordered that Paul be brought into the barracks. When Paul reached the steps, he had to be carried by the soldiers because of the violence of the mob. For the crowd that followed him kept shouting, “Away with him!”

When daylight came, the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul. More than forty of them were involved in this plot. They went to the chief priests and elders and said, “We have bound ourselves with a solemn oath not to eat anything until we have killed Paul. Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander to bring him down to you on the pretext of examining his case more carefully. We are ready to kill him on the way.”
These are the kind of Jewish Christians I think wrote the DSS that mention the Teacher of Righteousness. James (to judge from Acts and his letter) and Peter (to judge from 1 Peter, which I think is genuine) appear to have not shared this same level of hatred towards Paul. I get the impression that James had some trouble controlling these anti-Pauline Jewish Christians -and understandably so given how many of them there were- and was more willing to cut Paul some slack if he observed the Torah and did not teach Jews to not observe the Torah.

And the big issue seems clear to me now. It's not that James and other Jewish Christian leaders had a problem with Paul telling Gentiles about Jesus or teaching Gentiles to not observe the Torah, it's that he appeared to teach Jews to not observe the Torah. See what James says in Acts 21:21-24 above (which is in keeping with Paul's stated MO in 1 Cor. 9:20: "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law, though I myself am not under the law, to win those under the law"):
... they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs ... Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the law.


This is why James and the other pillars had no problem with Paul telling Gentiles about Jesus in Gal. 2:9:
And recognizing the grace that I had been given, James, Cephas, and John—those reputed to be pillars—gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the Jews.
But in my view Paul clearly overstepped his bounds and taught Jews to not observe the Torah, hence the rumors that James mentions in Acts and James sending people to check up on him in Antioch in Gal. 2:11-16:
When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. The other Jews joined in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile ‘sinners’ know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
This is why I think James institutes special rules for Gentiles in Acts 15:5-21:
But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter ... "It is my [James'] judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood. For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
So if Gentiles want to learn about and observe more of the Torah, they can, since "Moses ... is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." But if they don't want to, they should at least abstain from 1.) food polluted by idols; 2.) sexual immorality; 3.) meat from strangled (i.e., improperly slaughtered) animals; and 4.) blood. That this is accurate is clear from Paul, who discusses the first two of these rules in 1 Cor. 7 and 8 (though he appears to have an issue with rule number 1, in contrast with the Didache, which is a Jewish Christian writing directed at Gentiles).

1 Cor. 8:4-8:
So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

But not everyone has this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that they eat such food as if it were sacrificed to an idol. And since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us closer to God: We are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Did. 6:1-3:
See that no one make thee to err from this Way of the teaching, for he teaches thee without God. For if thou canst bear the whole yoke of the Lord, thou wilt be perfect, but if thou canst not, do what thou canst. And concerning food, bear what thou canst, but keep strictly from that which is offered to idols, for it is the worship of dead gods.
Last edited by John2 on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:50 am, edited 39 times in total.
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John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

The Nazarene faction of Jewish Christianity is said to go back to Jesus (according to the NT and Epiphanius) and was cool with Paul, at least to the extent that he taught Gentiles about Jesus, which I think is more in line with Jewish Christian leaders. James, for example, appears to have held out hope that Paul would stop teaching Jews to not observe the Torah at the end of his letter in 5:19-20:
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


And Jerome says of the Nazarene faction in On Is. 9:1-4:
The Nazarenes, whose opinion I have set forth above, try to explain this passage in the following way: When Messiah came and his proclaiming shone out, the land of Zebulon and Naphtali first of all were freed from the errors of the Scribes and Pharisees and he shook off their shoulders the very heavy yoke of the Jewish traditions [i.e., the oral Torah, cf. Mk. 7:1-13]. Later, however, the proclaiming became more dominant, that means the proclaiming was multiplied, through the good news of the emissary Paul who was the last of all the emissaries. And the good news of Messiah shone to the most distant tribes and the way of the whole sea. Finally the whole world, which earlier walked or sat in darkness and was imprisoned in the bonds of idolatry and death, has seen the clear light of the good news.
So post-70 CE Nazarenes (like pre-70 CE Jewish Christian leaders in Gal 2:9) were okay with Paul teaching Gentiles about Jesus (since he was at least on the same page as them regarding the basics, as per 1 Cor. 15:1-11 and Gal. 1:23-24), but they presumably were not okay with his teaching Jews to not observe the Torah (as per James in Gal. 2 and Acts). That is what the issue is, not whatever he taught Gentiles regarding the Torah (though they appear to have had issues with what Paul taught them regarding some of James' rules).

And I notice that while James speaks of the poor, he doesn't use the word "ebionite," which I think is another indication that James was a Nazarene and not a proto-Ebionite (like the writers of the DSS).

James 2:5-7 (cf. Gal. 2:10):
Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor [πτωχοὺς/ptochous] of this world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor [πτωχόν/ptochon]. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you into court? Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called?
Last edited by John2 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:14 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

And I'm going to bring this thread back the Pastorals when I get time, since 1 Timothy appears to me to have been written by a post-70 CE Nazarene Jewish Christian or someone who was influenced by them (and also seems familiar with ideas that are in the Damascus Document), as I mentioned in the OP.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: The Pastorals

Post by John2 »

I wrote:
I'm starting to think Paul's (and in my view Josephus') patron Epaphroditus could have written Acts (if not also the gospel of Luke). From my point of view, Luke/Acts is pro-Paul, pro-Rome, used Josephus, and had access to earlier Christian writings (such as Mark and in my view also Matthew, as per the Farrer Hypothesis). And Epaphroditus was pro-Paul (since he supported him), pro-Rome (since he was an imperial freedman), and if he was later Josephus' patron of the same name, then he would have had access to Josephus. And he was a writer (since he was a secretary) and was particularly interested in history (according to Josephus). And he was a Christian and a companion of Paul, so he could have had access to earlier Christian writings (and maybe even the "We" writings are his). His statue even shows him holding scrolls.

https://www.livius.org/pictures/a/roman ... phroditus/
Out of curiosity, I took a fresh look at the "We" writings, and to my surprise they involve Philippi, where Epaphroditus spent time according to Philippians, and Rome, where Epaphroditus would have lived as Nero's secretary!
Sections in Acts, Description, Approximate Dates

16:10 to 16:18 Troas to Philippi 49 AD

20:4 to 21:19 Philippi to Jerusalem 54 to 57 AD

27:1 to 28:30 Caesarea to Rome 59 to 62 AD

http://ed5015.tripod.com/BActsWeSections153.html
Php. 2:25-29:
But I thought it necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger and minister to my needs. For he has been longing for all of you ... I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may rejoice, and I may be less anxious. Welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor men like him.
Php. 4:22:
All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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